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Good. Very good to see more clear-cut answers.

"When you enter the product key, the setup program checks to see whether you installed the product on a clean system that didn’t previously have any version of Windows installed. If the answer is yes, it blocks you from entering that key."

So what's the problem then? Really? Why is there so much confusion over this? Why are people (Paul) trying to hack the upgrades?

We've all known for some time that MS changed the upgrade procedure, and *why* they did it.

And now everyone is freaking out because "WAH!!! You can't do a clean install from an upgrade disc!! WAH!!"

Guess you should have bought the full version then.

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I think the reason that there's not a large outcry about these types of situations is that a large number of folks are just buying new computers rather than upgrading.

This will help Microsoft's OEM partners, as most will buy PCs.

Frankly, I don't understand why there's upgrade edition to begin with. Aside from Mac and DIY folks, just about everyone's upgrading from older version of Windows (which I assume to be well over 90%). Is making 90% of the legitimate buyers worth making their life difficult (as well as increasing customer support calls)?

RunTimeError

"Guess you should have bought the full version then."

It was interesting to see how many of the postbacks on Paul's previous article were from articles with titles like "Save $xx by buying the upgrade to do a full install"

Upgrades are useless, anyway.  Everyone says you should wipe and reinstall for any new Windows version anyway.  So the "upgrade vs. new install" should just go away.  Aren't you trying to lure people to Windows from something else, too?  So a HIGHER cost of the OS creates a greater barrier to moving to Windows.  There should only be one price, upgrade or not.

Speaking of upgrades, it seems Vista is getting the "last laugh" by causing quite a few folks to fall into an endless reboot cycle when they attempt an upgrade install from Vista to Windows 7.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see what all the fuss is about.  Even if the consumer bought the "upgrade" version, Paul writes how to get around it for a new install.  So, who's complaining and why?

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So let's see, less than one week from release and already we have...

Problems with clean installs from an upgrade disc.

Problems with installation from the student download program.

Problems with endless reboots when upgrading from Vista.

Can we apply the word "Debacle" like Paul and so many others quickly attached to Snow Leopard?

"Can we apply the word "Debacle" like Paul and so many others quickly attached to Snow Leopard?"

The relative percentage of Windows users having these problems is smaller than the relative percentage of Snow Leopard users with upgrade problems.  You can blame the low marketshare of Apple users for that higher percentage of problems.

"The relative percentage of Windows users having these problems is smaller than the relative percentage of Snow Leopard users with upgrade problems."

Show the figures to prove that. Otherwise that is just baseless speculation.

"Show the figures to prove that. Otherwise that is just baseless speculation."

Pot, meet kettle.

You Apple freaks act like Apple software is perfect and then get all mad when you are shown otherwise.

When you are feeling good, you taunt the Windows freaks when flaws are found in MS software, and then they get equally mad.

Don't you all realize that imperfect humans are writing the software.  There are going to be problems.

Until a perfect being is writing perfect code executed on perfect hardware, there are going to be issues.

You should be sympathetic towards the people experiencing the issues, lest you get the same in return when it happens to you.

This post was mentioned on Twitter by thurrott: Finally, Some Answers to Windows 7 Upgrade Questions: Ed Bott just uploaded a very timely post about the Window.. http://bit.ly/YQqvF

"And now everyone is freaking out because "WAH!!! You can't do a clean install from an upgrade disc!! WAH!!"

Guess you should have bought the full version then."

Again, I'm going to ask (not rhetorically; I'm serious here): What happens when (not IF, it's a mathematical certainty that it will happen) your hard drive fails completely? If you can't locate or get the original install CDs (even through Waethorn's convoluted solution), or if your originals are damaged, or through some other scenario you just can't reinstall from the originals are you seriously telling me that your only solution is to buy a new version of Windows that costs almost as much as a replacement PC? Seems to me that Paul's published workaround is a welcome necessity.

@yoshipod:

Here's a real fact:  ZFS is dead and Snow Leopard Server customers and partner developers that were planning on using it for deployment are being orphaned on dead technology out of the gate AT THE VERY LAST MINUTE.  I don't need any statistical proof to back that up either - it's common knowledge.

Waethorn, what does ZFS have to do with Vista upgrades?

Paul, didn't you threaten to ban people for OT posts?

" If you can't locate or get the original install CDs (even through Waethorn's convoluted solution)"

You mean going to http://www.restoredisks.com and ordering from there when the manufacturer discontinues the option to order them?  How is that convoluted?  Of course, you conveniently forget that I mentioned to order/create discs IMMEDIATELY if you didn't get them with the computer.  Most included OEM recovery software on new PC's has some kind of popup telling you to create recovery discs on first boot, and the instructions are there for your own good.  You only have yourself to blame if you don't follow the directions provided, kind of like the user that tried entering an upgrade key after doing a clean install with an upgrade disc while blowing away their original recovery partition.  It certainly seems easier to run through a SUPPORTED scenario rather than trying Paul's hack, and modifying the System Registry (which no typical end-user should do).

"Waethorn, what does ZFS have to do with Vista upgrades?"

Ask yoshipod, who started the conversation about Snow Leopard.

Of course, you'll always back someone on your own team, won't you?

"Here's a real fact:  ZFS is dead and Snow Leopard Server customers and partner developers that were planning on using it for deployment are being orphaned on dead technology out of the gate AT THE VERY LAST MINUTE.  I don't need any statistical proof to back that up either - it's common knowledge."

ZFS was not included in 10.6.  Apple ended development of it for Mac OS X due to licensing issues.

What partners were developing or planning on using it?  Please link to one.

This is just another straw man argument since you are not able to show any facts.

panache1023 said:

"Don't you all realize that imperfect humans are writing the software.  There are going to be problems.

Until a perfect being is writing perfect code executed on perfect hardware, there are going to be issues.

You should be sympathetic towards the people experiencing the issues, lest you get the same in return when it happens to you."

You are absolutely right.  I agree with you. Every OS has problems. There is no perfect OS and there will never be one.  I am a Mac user myself, but I do think that Windows 7 looks like a good OS.

I posted that initial comment, since Paul was so intent on making 10.6 look bad, that he, and many others, jumped on an installation issue and proclaimed it to be a debacle.

I am only posting to show how silly he, and many others, are.  They can dish it out, but can't seem to take it.

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Yes please tell us what partners were going to use ZFS?  Probably the same ones that were going to use WinFS.

Sun/Oracle wanted $$$ for it and Apple did not want to pay.

Wae does not have Mike G's talent for dodging questions and changing the subject.

"What partners were developing or planning on using it?"

Sure, Apple released a developer preview of ZFS so that nobody would download it.

"since Paul was so intent on making 10.6 look bad"

Yeah Paul tried really hard here.  Look at the Ant-Apple crap he posted the week of the SL launch.

It worked so well too.

Well Wae you have been going to the Mike G of dodging after all.  Thanks for that list.

"Paul was so intent on making 10.6 look bad, that he, and many others, jumped on an installation issue and proclaimed it to be a debacle.

I am only posting to show how silly he, and many others, are.  They can dish it out, but can't seem to take it."

As Dip already said:  "Pot, meet kettle".

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"Yes please tell us what partners were going to use ZFS?  Probably the same ones that were going to use WinFS."

The difference is that Apple had running code for ZFS that was released to developers.  Microsoft didn't.  Apple pulled the plug on the project only weeks before the release.  Microsoft didn't.  How are they similar?

Nowhere in his post did Paul mention Apple or OS X...that may be unusual, but it is true. All of you simple minded idiots on both sides of this moronic argument need to put the mice and keyboards away and get out of your (or in some cases, your parents) basements and get a real life.

--tayme

Waethorn has made a good point. If you can't be bothered creating a set of recovery disks then you will leave yourself wide open to grief down the track. Its worth taking the time to have a system recovery backup in time of need.

Microsoft, making things easier for their users. Keys? Registration? You mean you can't just install your OS and without this guff?

"Waethorn has made a good point. If you can't be bothered creating a set of recovery disks then you will leave yourself wide open to grief down the track. Its worth taking the time to have a system recovery backup in time of need."

THANK YOU!

The complaint I have is that OEM's aren't including these discs for you, and I would side with anybody making that same comment.  Blank discs are cheap.  If Microsoft requires that OEM's manufacture expensive pressed discs for installation, the least that the OEM could do is just put in a few blank DVD's for the user to burn their own copy.  MSI already does this with most of their systems.  Asus actually includes a recovery DVD - even for netbooks that don't ship with optical drives.

"Microsoft, making things easier for their users. Keys? Registration? You mean you can't just install your OS and without this guff?"

You should be familiar to the phrase: "just buy a new computer with it preloaded for you", which I recommend for customers of Atom single-core netbooks.  I'd recommend to customers looking at netbooks to wait for the good stuff to come.

"Nowhere in his post did Paul mention Apple or OS X...that may be unusual, but it is true"

You can blame a Mac user for bringing them up too.

To the naysayers who are too sheltered to realize that there WILL be a time when you will need to do a clean install, consider this:

You've been running Vista, but you upgrade to 7, through a "supported" scenario.  About a year or so later, as Windows installs typically do, it becomes bogged down and is just simply in need of a refresh.  You insert your upgrade media to perform a clean install. Oh, wait...

You've been going along just fine with Windows 7, then suddenly, your HDD fails.  You salvage as much data as you can and buy a new hard disk.  You insert your upgrade media to install 7 back onto your computer so you can get back up and running.  Oh, wait...

One day at work, you get a support call from someone who has a Windows 7 PC that has become laden with viruses and spyware of all sorts, and now the thing won't boot up.  You have the customer bring their PC in for you to look at, and you deem it not worth "fixing."  You salvage as much of the customer's personal data as possible, and then proceed to install Windows 7 back on their computer.  They've got an upgrade disk.  Great.

In ALL of the above scenarios (and many others), to go through a "supported" re-installation path, Windows Vista would have to be installed, then you would have to use the Windows 7 upgrade media to perform a clean install.  Regardless of how you look at it, it's a hassle.

"It certainly seems easier to run through a SUPPORTED scenario rather than trying Paul's hack, and modifying the System Registry (which no typical end-user should do)."

After having read what I just posted, do you seriously think it's easier to do a simple registry entry modification than to go through the hassle of installing 2 versions of Windows just to have a working OS?

Anyone who thinks that Paul's suggested registry modification is difficult probably shouldn't be putting installation media in their computer in the first place.

Thanks for the link to Ed's post, Paul. Good info.

A co-worker of mine upgraded from XP to 7 using the Easy Transfer Wizard I told him about and he said it went amazingly smooth. No hiccups with the setup process and an hour later he was at a nice, clean, responsive, Windows 7 desktop.

I went from 7 Ultimate RC to 7 Pro RTM using the custom install and was impressed with Easy Transfer thing as well. Almost every application had the correct link to download the installer which was pretty cool. I was a bit disappointed that it didn't remember my Media Center settings and I had to re-configure it but not a big deal.

Actually now that I think about it, I didn't have the ETW transfer my profile because I keep everything on the home server so maybe the Media Center settings are stored there. Will try that with my HTPC.

Also, Gizmodo had a poll asking how the Windows 7 upgrade went for people. 67% responded that it went "excellent" and 16% voted "good". Factor in the not-so-bright readers and the mac fanboys who voted something else and I'd say that's pretty great! Nice job with this one MS.

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Microsoft's Online Online operations going down, down and down over the years: www.businessinsider.com/chart-of-the-day-microsofts-online-operating-income-2009-10

Google have nothing to worry about.

"Robertsjoe: Bringing you the important, relevant and interesting Microsoft related news. Making up for what SuperSite for Windows lacks." (tm)

"Asus actually includes a recovery DVD - even for netbooks that don't ship with optical drives."

As you like to say, "WRONG!". There wasn't one in either of the two I bought.

My $399 ACER Vista laptop included two blank discs for backup, which it made me create immediately out of the box. But again, if I lose the recovery discs or backup discs that I made, I'd be screwed if I bought a legal upgrade Win 7 disc, unlike Snow Leopard, which allows you to full install without any OS, unless it's on a PPC ;)

"As you like to say, "WRONG!". There wasn't one in either of the two I bought."

Every Eee PC I've sold came with them.  I've sold the 1000H, 1000HE (the best one that's no longer available), the 1005HA, 1008H, and HA, and even a few of the business-class models.

"robertsjoe:  soon to be named Ocean-wannabe perma-ban #2"

"The difference is that Apple had running code for ZFS that was released to developers.  Microsoft didn't.  Apple pulled the plug on the project only weeks before the release.  Microsoft didn't.  How are they similar?"

And you know all of this how?  Microsoft never had a running version of WinFS?  Apple was almost finished?

Man you got some good connections.  I think you should not waste time here Wae, insider trading, with your knowledge, would probably pay better.

When is the Apple Tablet coming out Wae?  How about the Zune phone?  Or maybe some Zune Apps?  Please tell us.

Wae why did MS pull the Family Guy episode?  When are the bring back Jerry and Bill?

Was Ocean really banned?

"After having read what I just posted, do you seriously think it's easier to do a simple registry entry modification than to go through the hassle of installing 2 versions of Windows just to have a working OS?"

....and one day Microsoft makes changes to the Windows Genuine Advantage which blocks the registry key that Paul documents a hack for, and you go to do a clean install from your upgrade media, and oh wait....

Yes, I would say that doing things the supported way is the right way to do it.  It's not always the fastest method, but if you have a problem with it down the road, don't b*tch and moan about it.  In times like these, I like to bring up the clause in the license agreement that states "this software is provided as-is....".  And yes, that means that you have to deal with the restrictions put in place in the software.

"Was Ocean really banned?"

No.

"And you know all of this how?"

arstechnica.com/.../apple-delivers-zfs-readwrite-developer-preview-1-1-for-leopard.ars

I use this syntax in my IE8 address bar:

"? zfs developer preview"

....probably less than a second of research.

"Microsoft never had a running version of WinFS?"

Not a finished version, no.  Besides that, WinFS was not a filesystem.  ZFS is complete (and is a filesystem), according to Sun, as it's being used in production software now.

"Apple was almost finished?"

Well, let's see:  Snow Leopard [Server] just launched, and they just issued a press release saying that the project was cancelled so, yes, I would say so.  (It was actually Sun's FS, which was already complete, so the work involved was only in revising the code for implementation in OS X)

And yes, tayme:  that's another Mac person bringing up these topics again even though I sufficiently ended this line of questioning 3 hours ago.

" if I lose the recovery discs or backup discs that I made, I'd be screwed if I bought a legal upgrade Win 7 disc"

Ditto for losing your Win 7 disc.  Or your Mac install discs for that matter.  Is it so hard to not lose one disc over another?

Maybe you need a memory upgrade before installing....

"Anyone who thinks that Paul's suggested registry modification is difficult probably shouldn't be putting installation media in their computer in the first place."

Ask any user what the system registry is (it's the "Mom test" that Leo likes to talk about).  If they don't know, they shouldn't be touching it.  I'm sure you're Mom knows how to put a disc in a drive and read the setup instructions on screen though.

Nice 2007 article Wae.  I did not see the list of "partners" that were let down with the canceling of ZFS in it though???

So what month in 2010 do you think monthly Android phone sales will eclipse WinMo phones?  April?  May?

Easy Wae. I made no personal attacks on you. I'm board certified in two specialties. My memory is fine. But if you buy a new upgrade discs and lose/misplace the old ones, and have a disc failure, as many do, then you're in trouble with any upgrade disc. This is quite common with plenty of folks that I have helped. They usually cannot find any of the old install discs, and only have the most recent ones. But I am sure that I have not even come close to the amount that you have helped, although you've probably seen the situation too. However, I bet a call to MS would help them out. They have always come through for me.

Good night all.

"Was Ocean really banned?"

He should have been.

I just thought of something. Whenever a friend would lose the restore disc or install disc for XP and need a reinstall, I would just use mine, but would use the product key on the side of their computer, which would work as long as I had the same service pack. So for XP, losing the install disc would not be such a problem for any one trying to restore Win 7 for some loser, I mean tech handicapped person, which would probably be sending the computer to the shop. Can you do the same for Vista? I never tried. OK, now I'm going to sleep, or at least try. All friggin day I've been tired and now at night, I can't sleep. Ant way, I'll check for an answer in the AM.

Good night all.

DRWAM

You should be able to do this with any Vista install disk. As long as your key is the one tied to the particular machine it should work. I used my Vista Ultimate disk to reinstall Home Premium on a different machine using the Home Premium key. It worked fine, as long as your key matches it'll work.

Its also good to keep a copy of your important installation keys using the "Magical Jellybean Key Finder"  www.magicaljellybean.com/keyfinder

I have never reinstalled Office with a different install disk but it might work.

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This is, again, hilarious. You need to outline what to do with your specific discs. Why not release one version that's got everything on it for a maximum of 129 (insert currency unit)? Oh wait, that would be yet another copy from Microsoft.

Oh, and that free upgrade from Vista: it's not so free after all.

www.everyjoe.com/.../windows-7-free-upgrade-is-not-totally-free

The free upgrade turned out to be around $12.99 and $17.03 dollars which is the cost for Microsoft to ship over the disc to the user. According to Edgar Dworsky who is the editor of the Consumerworld.org and Mouseprint.org the cost of sending the media via mail is just around a dollar.

Microsoft should have cleared what this shipping mean and the things charged to it.

Dell Compaq, HP, Sony and Toshiba are waving fees for some users while some are being charged between $11.25 to $14.99 dollars. Lenovo is the biggest hitter asking buyers to shell out $17.03 dollars.

Lenovo, on the other hand, nails every buyer with a $17.03 fee for the Windows 7 upgrade disc.

Windows 7 users are being screwed over, just like they have been with Windows Vista.

Oh, and that touchscreen stuff in W7: it ain't working that well either.

www.youtube.com/.../opql1

I would want to email those guys, but W7 doesn't come with a pre-installed mail program.

Wow. How can that be in 2009? That's even more hilarious than an iPhone without MMS.

Or releasing your W7 with know security issues

www.fsfe.org/.../news-20091019-01.en.html

Microsoft's latest operating system, Windows 7, is currently shipping with a potentially serious defect. Ahead of the product's global launch on Thursday, Germany's federal IT security agency (BSI) has issued a warning [1] about a high-risk vulnerability in the SMB2 protocol. This can be exploited over the network to shut down a computer with a Denial of Service (DoS) attack.

This incident illustrates how proprietary software often poses a security risk. "Only Microsoft can fix the problem. But they have apparently closed their eyes to this vulnerability for a long time, hoping that it wouldn't spoil the retail launch of Windows 7 this Thursday," says Karsten Gerloff, President of the Free Software Foundation Europe (FSFE).

Yes, broken promises. Again.

"Every Eee PC I've sold came with them."

Maybe the ones you sold did, but the ones I bought didn't.

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"Wow. How can that be in 2009? "

Same reason that you need a ballot screen in the EU.  In other words, not the fault of MS, but they end up looking bad because of it.

Nice try using a very biased source on the security vulnerability.  I don't see any CVE number, nor does it seem that they have even disclosed the vulnerability to MS in a responsible manner.  Big fail on their part if that is the case.

Thanks for the reply Whiplash. It will help me when my friends need a reinstall but can't find the original Vista discs. Office works the same way as I have used other install discs with the keys from the owners computers, which thankfully now are typically placed on a sticker as well.

Personally. I keep all software filed in my home study/office. I bag mauals and software for each computer, so not to mix them, and place it on one of two shelves. I never lose a disc and still have the CD's for a couple Win 98 laptops and Win Me upgrade as well [but it was never installed]. This has helped more friends than myself, of course. When I set up a friend's PC,  encourage them to do the same and usually have them get a plastic bag while I'm there.

@Log

Sounds like the flash security flaw Snow shipped with, that Apple had already (finally) patched.

"Easy Wae. I made no personal attacks on you. I'm board certified in two specialties. My memory is fine."

It was a joke obviously.  If you lost your keychain, or your TV remote, or some other thing like that, what would be the expense to buy a new one?  The moral of the story is:  don't lose it.

"I bet a call to MS would help them out"

In the case of OEM software, no, they don't.  It's the OEM's responsibility to support end-user scenarios with OEM software.  Microsoft only supports the OEM.  That support is not channeled down to the end-user directly though - it's handed off to the OEM first.

"Whenever a friend would lose the restore disc or install disc for XP and need a reinstall, I would just use mine, but would use the product key on the side of their computer, which would work as long as I had the same service pack."

Most of the time it doesn't, especially for royalty OEM (namebrand) software, because royalty OEM's use SLP media ("System-locked protection" AFAIK), which locks the media to a particular BIOS string that only that make and model would have.  Royalty OEM software doesn't request a product key either, and the product key won't work on System Builder copies because they aren't valid on Microsoft's activation servers.  Sometimes the odd OEM might not follow all of the rules and certain copies will work, but that's not the norm.

"According to Edgar Dworsky who is the editor of the Consumerworld.org and Mouseprint.org the cost of sending the media via mail is just around a dollar"

Obviously he's never paid for customs duties before.  I purchased a package that was worth $200US not so long ago, and the custom duties and brokerage fees on it were over $50.  The discs for Windows 7 meant for Canada are shipping from the US.  It seems only big OEM's are charging for shipping the upgrades.  Microsoft isn't charging anything for System Builder upgrades.

Nobody is never banned here ... Paul told me it cannot do that...

The wife does forget a lot Wae, so she bought a little drawer system for our keys. Home organization can prevent these loses, but I'm still convinced that Microsoft would help any body with this problem. The stories that I hear as well as my personal experience shows it to be true. Plus, MS beta tests thier OS, so that I don't get logged out spontaneously twice a day, like Snow Leopard. It's decreased to a coupkle times a week since the last update, but a good beta testing would have helped. It's annoying when typing an email or a blog as it's usually lost.

Personally, I really hope for Windows 8, the upgrade path gets more thorough testing through the beta and RC cycles. It feels like the upgrades were more of an afterthought. Perhaps Paul's supposition that most people just buy a new PC, isn't as strong he and many other had originally thought. Myself included. Maybe there are a lot more migrations from Windows XP, Vista, and that HAS to be done even smoother in the next version or hopefully in later version of Windows 7.

Other than that, the launch looks pretty darm smooth to me. I'm really enjoying the RTM version of Windows 7 and I'm glad that other than a few very minor issues, Windows 7 is off to a smooth start.

What happens when the HD on which Win 7 Upgrade is installed dies?

This is a situation that can occur sometime in the future long before the rest of the hardware becomes obsolete. It could be the next day after a "legitimate" update over an XP or Vista system.  It seems to me that such a system with a replaced HD will look like a system that never had a version of Windows installed, yet it doesn't sound unethical if one should use the upgrade version to get back in business.

Without Paul's recipe, I guess you have to have a Ghost or other image of the hard disk of the Win 7 install. Not everyone's going to be in that situation.

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Paul, you had me at, "...I have tried to sort through the mess of how it is you can clean install Windows 7 with Upgrade media."

Seriously. MSFT would do well to copy Apple and get the full OS on one version. They must think every Windows user works in an IT department (although the Win Zealots here complain about the common folk using Windows and not knowing what they are doing, like they should be an MSCE, or go use a Mac or Ubuntu. Wouldn't that severely cripple MSFT's precious market share).

This may be a minor issue to SOME people upgrading to Win7, but it boggles my mind why MSFT can't make things SIMPLE for all types of Windows' users. No wonder Apple sold 3M+ Macs last quarter in a recession.

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