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So is this some way they get around the EU? Why isn't this software included in Windows like it should be?

Windows Essentials, like Mail?

You mean, you buy an OS that has no mail? Wow!

That's even worse than an iPhone that has no MMS.

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"You mean, you buy an OS that has no mail? Wow!"

My guess is that the vast majority of people use web based mail anyways.  No big deal.

People complained because Vista was too bloated with software, now people complain because there isn't enough software.

I can see why Security Essentials isn't included - MS would probably have another lawsuit on their hands. Adobe Flash and Reader (I use FoxIt for PDF's, but oh well) are not MS products, but I can see why they would be needed. Zune 4.0 is awesome - I haven't even seen or used WMP 12 in Windows 7. WL Essentials - the Photo Gallery and Messenger are two apps I can't do without.

I work at a small ISP, and the lack of a mail program integrated is hurting us - a week into Windows 7 being out, and we have already had a lot of calls asking how to set up email. We offer web-based email, but it can only handle up to 10MB, so we want people to use Outlook Express, or Windows Mail. I recommend Windows Live Mail to them, but some are on dial-up, and the package is too big for them to download. My suggestion (sadly): use Hotmail, Yahoo! mail, or GMail.

I have to disagree with the boundling arguments: it is good that you can install a barebone Windows. If you use other software (AVG, Google Earth, Google Search, iTunes, GMail...) you do not need to see these MS links on your PC.

If you decide to opt in to the MS ecosystem, the software can be downloaded and installed in under 20 minutes.

PC makers should make these items optional in their online configurators, so everyone can have the benefit of choice.

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@jbrigance,

Good point. Too many of us forget about the challenges still facing many dial up users and their ISP's. Perhaps a bundled CD would work out best and also include the choices Kadarzsolt mentioned.

Paul,

Seriously - why isn't Zune and some other MS software included in Windows?

You really have to ask that?

ANTI-TRUST.

That's why.  They included IE in Windows - and looked what happened.

We have now reached a point to where some moron will say something along the lines of why doesn't MS offer choice screens for competing softwares like they do with IE?

How many choice screens do you want?  I don't even want the browser choice screen (thank God I don't live in the EU).  

JamesNT

The reason that it is unlikely that we'll see a lot of the aforementioned apps is because of legal issues.  

How painful for people to still be on dialup in this day and age. Heck, wireless HSPA would be much more tolerable.

Either way, good customer service would warrant the mailout of a CD with a handful of email clients for customers to choose from.

Couldn't MS just offer more of a discount to have these OEM's just to bundle the stuff already, no CD's, no links, it is just there ready to use.

Also I doubt any consumers complain about MS bundleling as long as it doesn't intefer with our choices.

Good points by many folks in here. I agree that instead of crapware, just bundle a CD or DVD with additional content. That way its optional, the end user has to put the disk into the drive, acknowledge the EULA agreements, and you have to administer the installation.

This is a way for Mozilla, Opera, Apple, and just about anyone to get their foot in the door. CD's and DVD's are so cheap these days.

Personally, I do hope Microsoft adds to the Windows Live Essentials both the Zune Software and the Microsoft Security Essentials. I just want Microsoft to put the finishing touches to Zune Software to ultimately replace Windows Media Player.

To solve the dialup issues, we need infrastructure improvements to our broadband networks. At least enough to finally end dialup service and offer cable, satellite, and DSL service nationwide. I just hope we can get it done.

Good selection here. I already use Norton, otherwise I would give Microsoft Security Essentials a try. I couldn't live without Windows Live Writer, and while I have Windows Mail on my laptop I don't use it, or care for it - I use Outlook 2007 instead.

Personally, I think Microsoft OneNote 2007 is one of the best Windows programs out there, and I would love to see it come with more computers out of the box - it's the one program I install on all my computers.

"You really have to ask that?

ANTI-TRUST.

That's why.  They included IE in Windows - and looked what happened."

Its not so much that they included IE, its that they did just about everything possible to lock out other competing browsers.  Exclusive deals, claiming that IE was part of the OS, intentionally making their sites rending wrong in other browsers, not being able to delete it, etc.

Had Microsoft just included IE with Windows and not done all that other stuff to lock out Netscape, Opera, etc., I doubt the anti-trust shadow would be so large that they would not include all these other applications that would be useful to many users.

"That's even worse than an iPhone that has no MMS"

At least you can load an alternate mail program into Windows.  Not so with MMS for the iPhone.

"Adobe Flash and Reader (I use FoxIt for PDF's, but oh well) are not MS products, but I can see why they would be needed."

I install most of this stuff already.  I also include the latest Java runtime.

I'd like to know how you install some of this software as an OEM.  The Zune software doesn't have an OEM preinstall option.  Does the EULA appear for each user the first time they attempt to use the software?  What about Bing 3D Maps?  I know that WL Essentials already comes in a System Builder-friendly OEM Preinstallation Kit.  OneCare used to have an OPK too.  How does that work with MSE though?  There isn't anything on the OEM System Builder site yet about these.

I'd like to see Microsoft offer this as a single DVD package to System Builders.

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"Heck, wireless HSPA would be much more tolerable."

Sometimes it's the cost too.  Cell access still isn't that cheap.  Especially not so in Canada.  There are quite a few long-range shared WiFi-to-satellite providers around here that are way cheaper than a cell data plan, and more in line, both in performance and price, with standard hardline broadband.

I hope this isn't OT :-)

I agree about including a cd/dvd with the MS software like Live mail. I have a few relatives that for example live in Northern Michigan and can only get dial up.

Now here is a company offering wireless: www.m33access.com/WirelessResidentialOptions.asp  check out this page....I called...and they will come to the home and do a free assessment. But see the top print, the instlal could cost $700-$1,200. What on god's earth could that cost be for? Who in their right mind would pay $700-$1,200 for home internet setup.  Anyways, my point is, I guess it's easy to forget about people stuck on dial up and stuck at 28.8K too

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redunion1940

"Couldn't MS just offer more of a discount to have these OEM's just to bundle the stuff already, no CD's, no links, it is just there ready to use.

Also I doubt any consumers complain about MS bundleling as long as it doesn't intefer with our choices."

And there is where you make your mistake. You see, since DOJ v Microsoft anti-trust enforcement stopped being about consumer protection and changed to being about business profit protection. Prior to that you had to show how an action harmed the consumer.

Harm to the consumer was never demonstrated in DOJ v Microsoft.

What WAS shown was that Microsoft's actions, including pro-consumer ones like giving discounts to OEMs that limited the amount of "crapware" on their systems, was harming the manufacturers of the "crapware".

For the first time, protection of non-competitive businesses was ruled to be of more importance to the courts than what was good for the actual consumer.

The example you cite, of bundling additional products at a discount, was one of the items condemned by the court. Even though it helps the actual consumer.

Disclaimer, I am not a lawyer. On the other hand, I DID read the entire court transcript of DOJ v Microsoft and I lived through DOJ v Microsoft as an Microsoft employee under court restrictions so I have some expertise.

Though I agree that most of these software should be part of the OS, I don't think they should ever replace WMP with Zune software. I have tried Zune and it is no where near as good as WMP 12.

I detest Adobe reader.

@lketchum

"Perhaps a bundled CD would work out best and also include the choices Kadarzsolt mentioned."

We probably will do a CD of some sort. I just think it's sad that we will have to provide a CD, like we used to do with IE 5.5 and Outlook Express. (We had machines still running Windows 95 that didn't have IE at all, so we had to provide a CD.) Taking the Mail portion out of Windows 7 was probably a good idea - it just isn't for the dial-up users who don't have an Internet email account.

Delmont

"But see the top print, the instlal could cost $700-$1,200. What on god's earth could that cost be for?"

Probably setting up a relatively high power transmitter.

If they're using their wireless terrestrial system they either have a tower VERY close or they need enough power that it takes a well trained tech not to screw up other signals.

On the other hand, if they're setting up a 2-way satellite system, that requires having an earth station that can broadcast TO geosynchronous orbit and not just receive those signals. And in that case, too, the problems with bleed and transmitter alignment are not something a person without training can really do or would want to be liable for.

Or, put simply, it's not that easy to do and it requires a skilled installer with some very specialized training that has to be paid for out of the limited pool of customers.

It's pretty silly that we're at this point but the low population density of the rural parts of the US and Canada make it unprofitable for businesses to set up infrastructure for high-speed and the politics of the last decade or so made it impossible (despite many attempts by the USDA) that there'd be a "socialist" program to bring universal high-speed Internet to the rural US the way Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Rural Electrification Administration (REA), brought electricity to those same rural areas in the 1930s and modernized much of the country.

@Ocean

"I detest Adobe Reader"

So do I! Not only is it slow, it has a lot of security issues! The security alone made me start using Foxit - the user interface in Foxit is a little jarring, but I'm used to it now.

"I agree that instead of crapware, just bundle a CD or DVD with additional content. That way its optional, the end user has to put the disk into the drive, acknowledge the EULA agreements, and you have to administer the installation."

That's a good idea actually.  I wonder if Microsoft allows any distribution rights to System Builders for that.  I would probably preinstall everything on a new PC, just like major OEM's, but if the user doesn't like something, they can remove it.  System Builders can't provide custom system recovery software on disc, so if they reinstall Windows from the DVD, they'll have a clean system to start with.  They'll have to reinstall the additional software from the extra DVD to get all the Signature stuff back on.  I CAN include a custom system recovery partition though.

Wow dialup.  What happens to these people on patch Tuesday?  Do they take their computer to the local library to get on some broadband?

The October Patch Tuesday had a lot of updates, probably more than the live mail download.

MS should just make an easy button application on the desktop of Windows 7.  Open the app, click the red button and it downloads all of this stuff (Live apps, Zune software, MSE).

Sad that they just cant have it installed already.

"But see the top print, the instlal could cost $700-$1,200. What on god's earth could that cost be for? Who in their right mind would pay $700-$1,200 for home internet setup."

Usually for a tower.  It's the same with some of the long-range WiFi providers around here.  If you have a good line-of-sight to the satellite relay, or to another customer that has it, the install is just $300+ for the WiFi relay antenna.

Also, someone that I know of that works for Bell [Canada] says that Bell will charge $150 apiece to install phone jacks in a new home....They decided to go with Rogers Home Phone instead, which is a switched cable phone (it doesn't use VoIP packets like most people think it does, but it does use their digital cable network).

"I have tried Zune and it is no where near as good as WMP 12."

Different UI's for different tastes.  I liked WMP 11 in Vista too.  I just found it had more advanced options over the Zune software.  I've been using Zune on Windows 7 for a while now though, and I do like it.  I find I can get around most of the limitations of it.

"Sad that they just cant have it installed already."

Well, according to the article, OEM's already are doing this.

BTW:  You can buy the same kind of WiFi access point relays that they use for most of these providers.

I've set up a few long range WiFi networks for clients that need building-to-building access.  I've been using these with complete success:

www.engeniustech.com/.../Category.aspx

@Waethorn

"Also, someone that I know of that works for Bell [Canada] says that Bell will charge $150 apiece to install phone jacks in a new home"

Outrageous! We charge $15 (trip charge), $1.50 (per outlet) and $15 every 30 minutes the man is there. It could add up to $150, but the man (or woman) would have to be there for a while.

"What happens to these people on patch Tuesday?"

The downloads start, and continue while their internet access is idle, but connected.  When they're ready for installation, the system will install them, and if required, reboot at the preset schedule as usual.

" It could add up to $150, but the man (or woman) would have to be there for a while."

Most new homes around here only have 1 standard phone jack installed, so the installer has to fish cable through the walls.

@Waethorn

"Most new homes around here only have 1 standard phone jack installed, so the installer has to fish cable through the walls."

Same way here, but our guys (having to go through walls, and upstairs, and basements, and attics, and people being hoarders, or in mobile home trailers, or in bricked houses, etc.) usually are at a house about 30 minutes. So, $15 trip charge, $15 for the 30 minutes, and then $1.50/outlet...it's nowhere near the $150. I am not disagreeing with you at all - I just think Bell Canada is putting it to their customers.

I for one think it's great that they're finally trying to take charge of the user experience.  By selling these Signature PCs in their retail and online stores *without* the crapware and *with* all the above stuff pre-installed they can offer (especially) non-technical buyer a much less bewildering out-of-box experience.

It's a good thing.

One thing I was wondering about.  I know the box makers help supplement their slim margins by adding the crapware - I wonder if MS offers Sony, HP, Dell, Acer, Lenovo, et. al. some sort of sweetener for those units they reconfigure as "signature."

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" I am not disagreeing with you at all - I just think Bell Canada is putting it to their customers."

No doubt there.  Their DSL service averages half the speed of Rogers in this area, and it's still the same price (their infrastructure where I am is limited to 5Mbps speeds, where Rogers offers 10Mbps).  Well, Bell's price is $51.95/month off-contract, including modem rental, and Rogers is $49.99/month off-contract, including modem rental.  Bell advertises their service as "maximum of 12Mbps", but few customers in this area know that they will never get half of that.

DSL is a dead-end technology based on a connection that was never designed to carry that kind of bandwidth.  Bell chose the wrong option there.  Cable scales incredibly well.  Rogers offers up to 50Mbps speeds (at a huge premium, mind you) practically everywhere they service cable (the only exception is where they don't have the technology in place at their local switching station yet).  Bell also chose the wrong technology for cellphone service - CDMA.  When the Teachers Union backed out of buying up most of Bell's stock more than a year ago, Bell's quality of service has fallen and never recovered.  They just don't have any money anymore to make drastic infrastructure changes.  The next step would be direct-to-home fiber, but they can't afford it.  Rogers will be offering some kind of new wireless HDTV option within the next couple of years too, which obviates the requirement for Bell satellite TV at the cottage.

" I know the box makers help supplement their slim margins by adding the crapware - I wonder if MS offers Sony, HP, Dell, Acer, Lenovo, et. al. some sort of sweetener for those units they reconfigure as "signature.""

Maybe.  Maybe not.  The question is, how do they avoid facing antitrust bundling issues over it.  Another question is, if I want to include the software on systems I sell, who is to say that Microsoft is at fault for that?  I would defend Microsoft if the choice was mine.  And no, System Builders don't get any kind of remuneration from Microsoft.  Major OEM's might, but I certainly don't.  If a company like Opera or Symantec came along and offered us money for bundling trial software, they'd have to convince me that they offer better value to the customer for their dollar when they convert the trial to a paid version.

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Quick question:  Are there US cable providers that lease their lines to sub-providers?

They don't have that in Canada.  If you get cable anything, there's only 1 company for any region.  In this area, it's Rogers.  In the West, it's Shaw.  In Quebec, it's Videotron.  Whoever owns the cable lines in any particular region is the only cable provider you can get.  For DSL service, you're using Bell's lines, and they lease out the service to sub-providers, but they (Bell) ultimately control bandwidth and maintenance of the lines and such.

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MikeGalos,

Experiencing something does make you an expert, nor give you "expertise".  It gives you "experience", nothing more.

Anti-Trust laws are intended to ensure fair competition in a market exists...not protect consumers.  You keep saying the "no harm to the consumer" line, but that is NOT what anti-trust laws are for.

No wonder you don't understand.

my post should have read "does not make you an expert"...

"Personally, I think Microsoft OneNote 2007 is one of the best Windows programs out there,"

I second this statement.

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>The security alone made me start using Foxit - the user interface in Foxit is a little jarring, but I'm used to it now. <

This.

Wow......Adminpack.msi was something like 17meg for XP.

RSAT For Windows 7      251 - 437meg.  Glad I dont have dialup.

www.microsoft.com/.../details.aspx

This is such a good idea. All the junk always got in the way of Windows.

I'm a die hard OS X fan and Apple apologist, but Microsoft has a winner with 7. Copy this, borrow that, whatever, 7 is strong juju.

One thing that I've noticed which I think is a huge omission on Microsoft's part is when you click on the System Center icon in Win 7 and click the link to find an anti-virus program, they do not even have Security Essentials as a choice. In fact the only one there for Win 7 is AVG. Checking the tabs for other operating systems gives more choices but still no Security Essentials.  Someone is really asleep at the wheel somewhere!

You can add my to the list of those who hate Adobe reader. It seems to just be getting bigger and bigger and slower and slower.

Panache, I didn't say "I am an expert". In fact, I clearly said I wasn't.

Even so, I do know that your assertion is flat out wrong. Period. Anti-trust law was created to benefit the consumer and NOT to guarantee a profitable path for non-competitive companies and their shareholders at the cost of the consumers.

You might want study up on Teddy Roosevelt and the Trust Busters before trying to apply post-Reagan "business profits are the only thing sacred" philosophy to areas where they didn't and shouldn't apply.

MikeGalos,

First, You said you had "expertise", which implies being an expert.  You didn't say you weren't an expert, you said you weren't a LAWYER.

Second.  Go to www.google.com and search for "purpose of anti-trust laws"

Your assertion that "Anti-trust law was created to benefit the consumer and NOT to guarantee a profitable path for non-competitive companies and their shareholders at the cost of the consumers" is flat out wrong.  And I never suggested that anti-trust laws were there to guarantee anything for anyone.  I said it they were there to ensure there is FAIR COMPETITION in the market.  Where did I mention profitability, shareholders, etc?

Let me know how that google search works out for you.  And, please do try to improve your reading comprehension.

From Microsoft's Encarta - encarta.msn.com/.../expertise_(1).html

--tayme

Again, from Microsoft's Encarta - encarta.msn.com/.../antitrust.html

--tayme

@panache1023 - I used Bing to come up with the Encarta links...even though the first one didn't paste in properly.

--tayme

panache

Having "some expertise" does not make you "an expert". It means you are partly on the way to becoming an expert. Perhaps you are having trouble with basic anti-trust concepts because of a lack of English skills. If so, I apologize for making life difficult for you. If not, perhaps you owe an apology to me.

Let me know when you read an actual book on antitrust law or actually study some cases rather than just making up what you wish were true to match some political theory. You'll find that you are flat out wrong.

As for "encourage competition" that is ONLY a consideration in antitrust law in the case where competition is deemed to help the consumer. If there is NO consumer benefit then encouraging competition is not a factor.

You're confusing a possible means of achieving the goal with the goal itself. Pehaps that's because you like that means but have a problem with consumer protection.

The pre DOJ v Microsoft rule was that unless actual consumer harm can be shown there is no violation. Oh, and minimizing shareholders losses is NOT what is meant as consumer harm.

Again, you might want to actually research the creating of anti-trust law by looking at Teddy Roosevelt or the court rulings on application of the various acts.

Lame attempt at not going off-topic, but anti-trust was already discussed...so, speaking of anti-trust...doesn't the bill that is about to come out of the house promote monopolistic behavior? If the Government Option is allowed to provide policies across state lines, shouldn't companies like Blue Cross/Blue Shield and United Healthcare be allowed to as well?

--tayme

@mikegalos - You might want to contact some of your buddies at Microsoft and have them include your definitions in the online dictionary that they operate.

--tayme

tayme

It's, as always, more complicated when you realize that the various insurance companies are already "regulated monopolies" which are exempt from quite a few laws concerning collusion and price fixing.

@mikegalos - So...what happens when the Government Option becomes a monopoly? After all, isn't the goal to provide healthcare insurance to as many legal Americans as possible? If they are able to do that, does it not become the monolopy?

--tayme

tayme

If, as the people opposing a public option (and note the word option there as in optional) are correct, the government will not be competitive because the private sector always does a better job and the government is incompetent. Of course they also say that if the government gets involved it would be unfair since the (semi-) private sector insurance companies can't compete in a market where they don't get their current exemptions to anticompetition law.

So, feel free to pick:

A) An optional public choice would eventually kill off the private insurance companies because the private sector can't compete against a government plan that would be better and cheaper for the consumers.

B) The optional public choice would not provide as good service to the consumers as the insurance companies because the private sector is always better than government involvement and thus the public option would fail from have nobody using it.

Picking both choices is, of course, idiotic as they contradict each other.

The point of not bundling all these apps was to cut down on install size and allow people to select their own applications. If you're using Outlook or Thunderbird you don't need Live Mail. Same with Live Writer, as good am application as it is its no where near as powerful as using the publishing feature in Word 2007. Having these as a separate download is better, it allows you to get only what you really need, and its very refreshing wish their partners would get a clue.

By definition, getting a Windows 7 machine, you're getting a crap PC.

robertsjoe

You're wrong. I didn't buy a MacBook to run Windows 7.

You guys are starting to depress me. The US legal system is ruining the country and hurting the consumer, while lawyers get rich.

Wae, you're posting too much today. As a penalty, send me your cat, unless you can tell me where I can buy a Bengal kitten and not spend $600 - 800 USD. The kids want it, but the wife says no. Bummer.

Back on topic. I just delete the crapware. It's not hard to do, and saves us money. I feel wonderfully defiant when I do it too. It's like showing the crapware vendors my middle finger. "Thanks for helpinbg my buy my PC. Now ram your crapware back up your crapper!" [delete]

"By definition, getting a Windows 7 machine, you're getting a crap PC."

If I thought that, I would buy a Mac ....

"I have tried Zune and it is no where near as good as WMP 12."

The Zune software really comes into its own with the Zune subscription. I haven't use WMP in months.

@DRWAM - I agree with the comment regarding the legal system and the lawyers! Doctors are good people...great people in many cases. I am not a Doctor, but I have raised a daughter who has had multiple, very serious health issues; so I have some expertise in that area.

Of course, that is anecdotal and not from mikegalos, so it is meaningless.

My opinion is that most humans want to help other humans,,,whether it be for spiritual or other reasons. A lot of Doctors donate a lot of time helping those that can'tr afford good insurance in this country, as well as others. I wish it was more here...but each person has the right to choose who they want to provide assistance to. I, myself, have spent weeks in various locations around the country helping people have a safe and dry roof over their heads and providing technology for schools in those areas. I have also given money towards providing medical needs. The thing is...I chose to do those things. But, for any government to TAKE my money to do those things is wrong in my opinion.

Enough politics...Go enjoy W7 or OS X or Ubuntu or another OS of your choice. Have a great evening.

--tayme

Another blow to WinMo.

www.appleinsider.com/.../apple_retail_stores_upgrading_easypay_from_windows_to_ipod_touch.html

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rr0de

Wow. That took a while. Apple announced a couple of years ago that they were switching the stores over to an Apple based system as soon as they shipped Leopard.

Guess they take their time beta testing when it's their money on the line and not just yours.

Or maybe that's why the "Snow Leopard" service pack took so long - all Apple's programmers were trying to get a workable Point of Sale system on a non-Windows platform so they could stop having to use Windows Mobile to sell iPods.

mikegalos,

I have read numerous sites, including microsoft sites, that describe pretty clearly what a trust is and the reasons for them being illegal.

Once again, nowhere does "consumer harm" get mentioned, but *repeatedly* mentioned is talk of ensuring competition, and also not abusing power to prevent competition.

Maybe it is you that owes an apology to everyone here for continuing to spout your "knowledge" of anti-trust laws, and your unwillingness to admit when you are wrong, regardless of how many times it is pointed out to you.  The best part is when you are shown you are wrong, you disagree with the definition, and claim it is due to my "not liking the politics" of it or some other nonsense.

You also need to look up what Anti-Competitive means, since you repeatedly claim Apple is anti-competitive, but MS is not (or was not)

Definition of expertise

–noun

1. expert skill or knowledge; expertness; know-how: business expertise.

2. a written opinion by an expert, as concerning the authenticity or value of a work of art, manuscript, etc.

Ok MikeGalos, put on the spin cap now, and let me have it good.

SHOW ME where anti-trust depends on consumer harm since i keep finding that it depends on anti-competitive behavior and ensure fair market competition.

Thanks

tayme,

one more time.

Anecdotes are fine as examples or stories. But they don't trump actual facts and I tend to call people out who claim their point is proven by things that start "well, a friend of mine had something like that..."

Is that really that hard for you to understand?

If not, I'm sure I can find someone to turn it into story form for you.

tayme, providing  care as you do is just as important as any doc providing medical care. I glad that I won't be alone in heaven, but I can wait a while before we meet. I'm going to sleep now. Second night of call and my back is sore from last night's emergency.

Keep the faith and goodnight to all.

Doc

Wow. All that because you think

"I have some expertise" == "I am an Expert!"

You really do think stubborn will win it for you when you're just being clueless?

As for the rest. Looking up "trust" really won't get you very far since we haven't had real "trusts" since the days of Teddy Roosevelt and William Howard Taft and anti-trust law evolved to things besides "trusts". Like, say, consumer protection. (Maybe if you look at something newer than 1890 you'd get more luck)

Try, try again.

@mikegalos - But, based on my example and your definition...and a true story at that...I have expertise in healthcare, and you have not provided a reason to believe that you have that same expertise.

Of course, I believe that you are confusing the definition of the word "expertise" with that of "experience". Maybe some basic vocabulary lessons are in need on your part.

--tayme

@mikegalos: Yeah, thanks Mike. We know you have no taste. No need to continue to make it known. Thanks.

Is it just me, or does reading @mikegalos' posts seem like we're listening to a drunk?

Windows Mobile is becoming quite a turkey.

"there's now little reason for Apple to stick with its slow, problematic Windows CE devices, which retail employees reported little satisfaction in using."

Little satisfaction and problematic. In a nutshell, that's Windows Mobile.

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@jbrigance,

I made an installer today with all the signature software installers for 32 adn 64 bit systems and added the titles others suggested.

We plan to include it with all of our builds and a cut sheet describing what it is all about and how to use it.

I can provide a copy that you guys could use if you like.

I am also working with some of our customers and partners to help bring free broadband to rural areas. We've self-funded an initiative to haul back high speed lines to our center and onto the cloud and working with American IP and SUIDISH, we'll install a wi-max transceiver wherever SUIDISH installs sat TV service and American IP will proivde the xcvrs to hit an antenna we're placing on top of water towers in rural towns - they are about the highest point in most places. We're trying to get the wireless carriers to provide femtocells so we can extend 3G wireless to homes for mobile voice. This is something we've all been working on for years and without any govt support or money. Just our own resources with the idea that it would help rural communities grow.

As one who grew up without electricity - not until 1954 did the rural electrification act touch our area, it has been a goal to reach out to all people and extend what so many take for granted.

Iketchum

great job, yes I'd be interested.

Broadband in Rural areas is one of my pet peeves being as how I live about 15 miles from Apple's Corporate HQs but can only get satellite "broadband" and only because I can see the southern horizon.

You wouldn't think of Rural as the parts of the Bay Area but do to the nature of the region a lot of people can't get high speed. Comcast sells us cable but won't upgrade to high def or the internet. DSL is about 7 miles away and not going to happen. Wide area wireless exists in the area but the guy won't return my emails for a site inspection so were hosed.

Sure I could move but having broadband isn't  as important as some things like having open space for miles around us the ability to walk out my backdoor and spend a week hiking without crossing any pavement. Still many of my neighbors can't get satellite or anything but 26.4 k dialup and the internet has become pretty much unusable at that speed.

3G is getting close I only have to drive a couple of miles east to get Verizon, At&T is  a half hour drive to get a good signal if your headed toward the city.

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MikeGalos,

1)  You are confusing the meaning of "some experience", with the term you used "some expertise".  Working for a company going through an anti-trust case does not give you any expertise whatsoever.

2)  I didn't say I looked up "Trust", I said I looked up what the purpose of anti-trust laws are.  In the articles, it describes what a trust is.  You have zero reading comprehension whatsoever.

3)  Read about the AT&T anti-trust case that led to the break up of AT&T.  

Here is an exerpt from

law.jrank.org/.../Antitrust-Law-U-S-Supreme-Court-Evolving-Doctrine.html

"DOJ settled claims that AT&T had impeded competition in long-distance telephone service and TELECOMMUNICATIONS equipment"

MikeGalos, look very closely at that statement.  IMPEDED COMPETITION...not "HARMED CONSUMERS"

You still have shown NOTHING to back up your claims that anti-trust laws are for consumer protection.  I have REPEATEDLY shown that anti-trust laws are to ensure fair competition.

Repeating yourself over and over again does not make what you are saying true.

Try, try again.

I've noticed a trend among the Apple lovers now that Windows 7 is out and is actually quite good.  They have no choice but to set their sites on another Microsoft product, in this case, an easy target, Windows Mobile.  Off-topic too.

DipshtAdmin,

That's really not fair....those guys went off topic about ANYTHING that put MSFT in a bad light....nothing to do with Win 7.

Give them some credit, will ya?  :)

mikegalos@msn.com  said:

rr0de

Wow. That took a while. Apple announced a couple of years ago that they were switching the stores over to an Apple based system as soon as they shipped Leopard.

Guess they take their time beta testing when it's their money on the line and not just yours.

*****************************

Oh what's this Mike makes a mistake which I'm happy to point out. Apple has had its own POS software for years and uses in on all its iMac registers.

Thanks for playing.

dude1313,

Mike makes mistake very frequently.  He just doesn't admit it, claims you said things you didn't, and changes the topic in numerous other ways.

I agree and I'm fully expecting that. I will hardly be surprised either.

And Dip, respectfully: There were lots of people claiming the same thing about Vista, but when the CEo comes out and admits it was not what the wanted... Win7 may do fine, my opinion is there is too much momentum for it not too.

To all-

Lastly I chuckle at Paul's suggestions that Snow Leopard is a "licking its wounds" somewhere. Really? The biggest issue is Guest accounts which so far anyone Ive asked that runs SL has been a non-issue. Only in Paul land does it mean that SL is a failure.