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Clear blog post, Paul. And I, as an apple-fan, am with you on this one.

Any idea if Microsoft is addressing the users' concerns other than posting this slap on the wrist?

Microsoft would never "throw their users to the wind"...

Right MikeGalos?  Right Waethorn?

That reaction from MS was entirely predictable, Paul.

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Either it wasn't obvious, or they're not talking about Paul. Either way, someone's skin seems wax-paper-thin here.

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So by Paul's standards, are we now safe to describe the Windows 7 Upgrade process as a "Train Wreck"? ;)

Paul

Realistically, you should look at the titles of the postbacks to your previous articles. Many, if not most, of them were titles advocating using your method to use an upgrade disk to avoid having to pay for a full package product. In other words, they were advocating theft.

Knowing you, encouraging theft wasn't your intent but it clearly was theirs.

Yes, clearly MS has dropped the ball when it comes to upgrading when they are clearly legally allowed to so but can't follow the narrow path defined to do it.  Whatever happened to the previous installation media check they used to do?  That would go a long way to fixing a lot of people's problems if you could just use your XP or Vista install disc to verify your upgrade.  I know there will be people that don't have or can't find their old media, but at least it is a way to allow it.

Are we calling it a debacle yet?  It sounds like one to me.

I want to thank Paul for helping many Windows 7 consumers install legitimately purchased products the way they should function in the first place. Considering how majority of the Windows 7 buyers are upgrading from previous version of Windows, I find all these "anti-piracy" measures more of anti-consumer measures. DIY and Mac users are perhaps only notable exceptions, but many of them buy OEM versions anyway. Many would-be consumers are probably more inclined to use pirated version of Windows as a result of these measures.

Microsoft just doesn't get it.

This post was mentioned on Twitter by Everything Microsoft: Enough, Microsoft. No One Is Endorsing Piracy. Obviously. http://bit.ly/3dZChv

I hereby officially proclaim that we all may now all freely use this term.

"The Windows 7 Debacle"

Paul,

Some examples of article titles that link back to your article at: community.winsupersite.com/.../clean-install-windows-7-with-upgrade-media-the-answer.aspx

Save $80 on your Windows 7 purchase - the Upgrade does full installs, too

Ahorra dinero comprando la actualizaci??n de Windows 7 para instalaciones limpias (save money by buying the update Windows 7 for clean installations)

Use Windows 7 Upgrade Disc to Perform Full Install and Save $80!

Windows 7 install trick saves up to $100

Pretending the workaround isn't primarily going to be used for theft despite your good intentions is, at best, naieve.

Excellent post. Microsoft has abused their users in the name of fighting piracy, in much the same manner as the RIAA.  As one who was gullible enough to buy Vista Ultimate, I think they owe us better treatment.  My own reaction is very simple.  Windows 7 will be the LAST operating system that I buy with any sort of product activation scheme.

"some “hack” (be it a person..."

Ouch.  The honeymoon is ovah!!!

"I'm just trying to support the millions of people that Microsoft fooled into pre-ordering Windows 7 by offering steep discounts, only to discover later that the Upgrade version they purchased unknowingly might not actually install properly."

How so?  "Legal" means you run it on a system with another legal copy already preinstalled.  How does circumventing that prevent it from being less than "legal"?

"Many of which are discovering that their Upgrade version of Windows 7 will not install properly on their existing, Windows-based PCs. The PCs that are supposed to support upgrades."

I'm going to take the unpopular side and say that it's not your job to practise "vigilante justice".  If the customer has a problem, they get support from Microsoft.  That's why they pay the big bucks for retail versions (and that includes retail upgrades) after all.

When Apple released Snow Leopard and supported the Honor System for upgrading (i.e., you can actually upgrade from Tiger, though the license doesn't allow it), I thought that Microsoft should consider doing the same.

I'm not so sure anymore.

"Pretending the workaround isn't primarily going to be used for theft despite your good intentions is, at best, naieve."

It's the same argument that the creators of Bittorrent, Limewire, Kazaa, and all the other P2P software use.

I pre-ordered a copy of Windows 7 Home Premium Upgrade and I had no trouble with doing a clean install.  I didn't even have to prove that I had a copy of Wnidows XP or Windows Vista (which, on both counts, I do).

As a reseller of Microsoft software, I don't want customers thinking that this is an easy way to get around paying more for the legal version.  Markup is all percentages, and percentages on a lower sale price means less profit to my business.

Well if they're so concerned about the loophole, they should close it. But, if users decide to stuff paying them at all, it'll backfire.

If the EULA says

"To use upgrade software, you must first be licensed for the software that is eligible for the upgrade."

And if that is the sole requirement, then the need for it to be installed is not a requirement, and doing a clean install with the upgrade disk is not illegal

The comparison with the RIAA is apt. The key point is that if your business model puts you at war with your customers, you better find a new business model.

All this licensing and activation crap from Microsoft has never put a dent in the major sources of piracy; it has only made life difficult for honest users.

Treating customers as criminals, especially in this case, is not just insulting and petty, it also doesn't make any economic sense.

How many of the Win7 sales will be to individual upgraders, as opposed to corporate purchases or installs that come with new computers? I believe the number is usually stated at around 5%. So, if 10% of that is "piracy", then Microsoft lost 0.5% of sales.

Surely it makes more sense to just accommodate the customers, the folks who pay the bills? Especially since the people who are even interested in this topic are some of Microsoft's more vocal supporters.

Dumb, dumb response from Microsoft. Reminds me of when Apple went after the blogger who was a kid.

Paul made a point on Windows Weekly that resounds most clearly with me through all this.  

"Who in their lifetimes, has not owned a Windows Machine."

Noone is coming to windows fresh here.  

95% of people that will be buying Windows 7 will be buying a PC for it.  

What was the statistic on Mac users a few weeks ago?   80% of them are a Windows household as well?  Most of them have a licensed copy of Windows on hardware that is going unused or will be disposed of.  They should have to buy a new full version cause it's different 3rd party hardware?

I upgraded from a clean install of win 7 RC1 to RTM and just popped in my upgrade key(I had re-armed the copy once since the install as well), does that make me a thief?

Thanks for the update Paul. I agree, it isn't about cheating Microsoft, it's about doing a clean install. I would really hate to have to carry about my Vista disks for years after I upgrade, just in case I have a hardware failure.

@Logjamming (and crew) ... Oh knock it off already with the Apple-fandom. Nobody cares!

@Paul... I completely agree! I still think that "Activation" just needs to go away entirely. Sell your product at reasonable prices (the way they have with these promotional upgrade packages), and people will buy, and Amazon has got the pre-order sales figures to prove it!

Rasken, he made a very valid point at the end of the blog post that blows you and Paul away:

>>please remember, No, OEM Microsoft Windows licenses cannot be transferred to another PC, in case you were wondering if an old OEM Windows license you have laying around or on another PC could qualify for the Windows 7 upgrade on a different PC.<<

Rasken: If you'd like an honest answer, then yes, that is a license violation. Win7 RC is not eligible for an Upgrade to RTM, even if it is a technically feasible scenario. If that system previously was licensed for Vista/XP, then sure, I guess it's legal.

From what I read at the MS blog was that it was ok(legal) to perform the hack IF you had a full license. (I have 3 vista unused)

In fact they added this "feature" specifically so consultants wouldnt have to do two installs.

I think that is the bigger news item than cranky-pants being a pedantic douche about "bloggers" not saying that if you dont have a full license you cant have 7.

Re: It's all Microsoft's fault

This is akin to the people saying how they used to not even have a lock on their door - but then having them blame Schlage and Yale and locksmiths for the inconvenience while thinking of robbers as romantic anti-heroes.

You see this same bizarre reaction when discussing anti-malware products as well. Don't like activation and WGA and A/V and A/M software? Try blaming the thieves for a change.

Re: Apple

When Apple actually produces a Full Package Product of Mac OS X, we can talk. RIght now every Macintosh sold includes in its high price a license for Mac OSX and every retail copy of Mac OS X is an Upgrade license only legal for use on a computer that already has a Mac OS X license.

Considering the $129 usual price for the upgrade it's safe to assume that the internal costing of a full package product included in a Macintosh sale is figured at Apple at somewhere between $300-400. If Apple ever sold full retail copies at that price it's hard to believe from their previous treatment of anyone they dislike that you wouldn't see them prosecuting anyone who publicized a way to use the $129 version in place of the $300-400 one.

"every Macintosh sold includes in its high price"

You get what you pay for Michael.  I'm talking about the hardware...

Ocean

"You get what you pay for Michael.  I'm talking about the hardware..."

You mean like all those Time Capsules that are dying at the 18 month mark?

Or the new 27" iMacs that slow down to an unusable crawl if they're used for more than 20 minutes without a reboot (likely due to either a memory leak in the video driver or an overheating problem)?

You mean like that?

Question: Did Paul hand the murderer the gun?

It's a common ethical excercise to ask if the person who handed the murderer the gun is morally responsible for what happened.

"Considering the $129 usual price for the upgrade it's safe to assume that the internal costing of a full package product included in a Macintosh sale is figured at Apple at somewhere between $300-400."

I guess Apple must really discount their hardware then.

By your accounting a brand new Mac Mini is only $199-$299.  :)

Just a quick clarification - The system that I bought the upgrade from was a HP desktop with a valid Vista license..  I'm actually completely legit on my partular systems.

I was just pointing out that if Microsoft wants people to do what is believes is the right thing, then it needs to develop technology that will enforce what they want.

If you're going to rely on the honor system or flimsy security, then stop bitching in public that people might be ripping you off.

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MikeGalos,

How do you know Apple doesn't charge $129 for OS X on their systems?

How do you know every Mac OS X disc isn't just the full version?  On my Snow Leopard package, I don't remember seeing the word "Upgrade" anywhere.

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>>You mean like that?<<

No.

I don't see the problem here. It is clear that in order to qualify for upgrade pricing, you do actually need to own a product that qualifies for upgrade. That's why I find it pretty strange, that the RC can be used to upgrade to Windows 7.

Now, íf we look objectively at the matter at hand, you will soon realise that this post is made in vain. There is no problem. It is an upgrade version, so logically you would have a previous Windows version. So to get around the problem, you either upgrade your existing, fully licensed and activated copy of XP or Vista, and still have the choice (in Vista's case) to do a clean install.

Or if you insist on installing it on a clean hard drive, you install the previous OS and do the same upgrade as above.

Where is the problem here. Unless of course you don't have a previous Windows version, in which case you are stealing.

With that student upgrade .exe/.iso issue and this, I think i see a new Apple ad  is brewing.

This stuff only really matters in the US/Cananda and probably some parts of Europe.  Go to India, China, Russia or large parts of South America and you can get Windows 7(any version) for free because of piracy.  Its funny they pick on Paul.

A billion copies of Windows around the world.  No doubt with 2/3rds of them running illegally.  With half of them running cash registers or other single purpose application/devices that users of may not even know Windows is in the device they are using, but those numbers make for a good PPT slide when you need them.

You mean like that?  I do, #1 in consumer satisfaction.

Mike I think you meant the Xbox 360 with its 56% failure rate.  F...I...F....T...Y.......S.....I....X % FAILURE RATE.  Just in case you did not read it correctly the first time.

"It's a common ethical excercise to ask if the person who handed the murderer the gun is morally responsible for what happened."

Here's a bit of clarity on that issue:  If you state on public television that you wish someone were dead, and that some lunatic watching actually kills that person, then yes, you are an accomplice to murder.

Hmm....purchase legitimately-packaged Microsoft software but breach the EULA and post about it, and they give you a stern warning on their website about right and wrong.  Purchase legitimately-packaged Apple software but breach the EULA and post about it, and they send you a C&D order and threaten to sue.

"#1 in consumer satisfaction."

In Apple's case, 20 people doesn't amount to much in the grander scheme of things.

panache

"How do you know every Mac OS X disc isn't just the full version?"

Because the license agreement doesn't allow you to install it on any computer but an Apple Macintosh which ONLY is available with a Mac OS X license.

Don't believe it? Try installing it on a "hackintosh" laptop and then take that laptop to a "Genius Bar" for support? I'd be amused at the result. (But I won't pay your legal fees)

So, um, Ubuntu 9.10 is out.  Does anybody care?

Speaking of which - their site is down.  LOL!  Epic launch fail!

Sure I rebuilt a FTP server with Ubuntu 9.10 for free.  It was running Windows 2000.

Epic launch fail...because of high demand?  Yeah failure that kind that every company wants.

>> Does anybody care?<<

Downloading it now.

I'm curious to know why Canonical has no screenshots or other info about the Netbook Remix version.  What's also curious is why they licensed their version of Moblin Remix exclusively to Dell.  I'm more interested in Moblin than anything else on the Linux front.

Anyway, the site is back up.  I'd bet there will be about as many people "upgrading" to Mac during the Windows 7 cycle as there will be to Linux.

>>I'd bet there will be about as many people "upgrading" to Mac during the Windows 7 cycle as there will be to Linux.<<

I'd bet Apple will post wildly profitable results the next time it reports.

Once again MSFT proves to the world they are more concerned with profits than actually satisfying their customers. I get the fact that they want to stop software piracy. I am all for them protecting their product. But they don't make it any easier for legit folks when they have multiple copies of the full version of Win7 along with multiple copies of the upgrade version of Win7 trying to be installed on various multiple copies of Vista and multiple copies of Vista upgrades.

K.I.S.S!

I agree with Ocean's prediction.  Paul and some people on this this site is so focused on Market share numbers they are blind to other statistics, like market cap, cash in the bank, stock price etc.

"I'd bet Apple will post wildly profitable results the next time it reports."

Knowing the cost the machines that they build:

"In Apple's case, 20 people doesn't amount to much in the grander scheme of things."

"In Apple's case, 20 people doesn't amount to much in the grander scheme of things."

Those are some pretty rich people seeing as how they each purchased over 150,000 Macs last quarter!

hmmm ... Again... Mike Galos is right on this one...

Please... stop talking about Apple ... Apple offer no upgrade so... You always have to pay the full parice so...

>>Knowing the cost the machines that they build:<<

It's not the cost, but the margins.  Dell and Acer are fighting over $250 - $300 machines that are sold for little more than it costs to produce them.  Apple wisely decided not to play that game.  

And Apples *entire* business is robust enough to float them through any rough quarters in the PC market.  As it is they've outperformed the PC market something like 17 of the last 18 quarters.

@MikeGalos

"Because the license agreement doesn't allow you to install it on any computer but an Apple Macintosh which ONLY is available with a Mac OS X license."

I'd like to know what license I need to install one full version of OS X SL on multiple Macs. There is no license serial number, if that's what you were implying. Is it right? No. But Apple doesn't care. They don't require any kind of installation serial number and Apple doesn't have their Macs phoning home like WGA. So I'm not sure what you are getting at. Maybe you meant the fact that a Mac is not a true, generic PC internally?

Legally you are correct. I'm just stating that I could install SL using one disk on multiple, compatible Macs. I guess it just goes to show how paranoid MSFT has to be since they only sell the software and not the hardware. Maybe there is something to be said for building your own box.

Please... stop talking about Apple ... Apple offer no upgrade so... You always have to pay the full *price* so...

Ocean  said:"[...]Apple wisely decided not to play that game.  

And Apples *entire* business is robust enough to float them through any rough quarters in the PC market.  As it is they've outperformed the PC market something like 17 of the last 18 quarters."

Baaaa! Big Deal!!! Apple did not decided anything on the PC market... Apple is just selling cheap PC like if it was High grade PC... Don't tell me they are not in the game... pffff...

Apple business is robust just because of the IPod and IPhone market not the PC market... Let me laugh... pfffff...

I think the Microsoft blog post had a valid point. You gave instructions for doing a clean install with upgrade media, but did not describe under what conditions this is legal. It's not like they're sayng doing a clean install isn't legal. On the contrary, the post points out that this is perfectly legal for "many, many, many, many of you."

I would think that any time a responsible individual  describes how to do something that could potentially be used for illegal purposes they would also point out under what circumstances it would be illegal to do so...

jonathanmarston said:

"I think the Microsoft blog post had a valid point. You gave instructions for doing a clean install with upgrade media, but did not describe under what conditions this is legal. It's not like they're sayng doing a clean install isn't legal. On the contrary, the post points out that this is perfectly legal for "many, many, many, many of you."

I would think that any time a responsible individual  describes how to do something that could potentially be used for illegal purposes they would also point out under what circumstances it would be illegal to do so..."

Jonathan is particularly right here...

@EricaF3   APLe haz UPGrndez for $TwENTy 9 dllras!!!!!!  

"Apple business is robust just because of the IPod and IPhone market not the PC market... Let me laugh... pfffff..."

You do know that you can actually lookup the profits that the Mac division is making at Apple and see that you are wrong?

pffff....zINg....NARheeee.....efefefeeFEFEF........EPIC FAIL!!!!!

I don't see what the big deal is here. Any company that puts out upgrade versions of their software has exactly the same rules as Microsoft. Everything from Autocad to Photoshop to Quark has the same rules for their upgrades. You have to have a licensed version of a qualifying product to be eligible for an upgrade version.

Upgrades are a way to reward repeat customers, not a way to attract new ones.

techman.merb

You certainly make a valid point, but I think the problem is that many users who legally purchased the upgrade, and met the qualifications to upgrade, are not able to do a clean install of the OS.

I may have misunderstood, but this seems to be a problem in cases where you need to do a clean upgrade, such as 32-64, or if your system has problems and you need to reinstall.

I was able to do a clean install of 7 Pro upgrade with no hack at all. The drive was only a few months old and had Vista Ultimate on it. I did an custom install and used advanced options to format my C drive and do a clean install.

So what am I missing?

Isn't this the result you want when doing a clean install with upgrade media?

If you want to use upgrade media on a blank drive or new home built computer than you're not doing an upgrade and aren't entitled to the preferential price. You can save money by buying OEM media from Newegg which I assume is Kosher for home built PC's since Microsoft supplies Newegg and the other retail vendors with the product.

Autocad and its license server crap, make Windows upgrade/activation look like a fun activity to enjoyed by all.

"Those are some pretty rich people seeing as how they each purchased over 150,000 Macs last quarter!"

Nope.  Just one each.  Each one sold subsidizes the Steve Jobs Hospice Fund.

@whiplash what happens if your hard drive fails and you dont have Vista on the blank replacement?  Are you going to buy a new copy of  7?

" I'm just stating that I could install SL using one disk on multiple, compatible Macs."

Just like doing a clean install of Windows without having a previous valid license, that would be illegal.

"Each one sold subsidizes the Steve Jobs Hospice Fund."

That is SO out of bounds.

"Autocad and its license server crap, make Windows upgrade/activation look like a fun activity to enjoyed by all."

I remember when software used to come with parallel port dongles.

"Steve Jobs Hospice Fund"  and the humanitarian of the year award goes to Waethorn!!!

Karma brother, yours is broken and hopefully you wont fall ill with some deadly disease in the near future and be all alone in some dingy hospital, running Apple computers!!!!

Please link your fellow Windows users to some malware sites like you did in the past.   That stunt actually tops todays performance.  You know test Windows 7 and MSE.

"I remember when software used to come with parallel port dongles."  Some now come with USB thumb drives that do basically the same thing.

I find it odd that I have used Enterprise software like Legato Backup Software in the past that has some insane security.   Like having to manually type in a long key (no copy paste) then that key combined with the hardware and IP address, will randomly create another key that you send back to the vendor, which then they send you the second key from them that needs to be manually typed in.  This must be done with in 30 days or it shuts off.  No hacking that easy, yet NO ONE would want to pirate this stuff???

Ok so now Apple sell Upgrade too... All apple *fan* here pass a conciderable amount off time to convice us that Apple don't sell useless upgrade in previous blog entries and now Apple sells OSX upgrade for 29$ ...

Incredible...

Good for you for sticking up for yourself, Paul.  I happen to be one of those who purchased 3 upgrade discs (the $49 pre-order), and I have way more than enough Vista, XP, and 2000 licenses to qualify me for these 3 and several more.  I reinstall my OS every so often.  I didn't want to fool with installing two OSes every time I did this, nor did I want to forego a truly clean install for the best post-install experience.  Your tip was exactly what I needed, and over the long run it's going to save me a great deal of time and trouble with these three systems.  Thank you again, and here's another example for Microsoft of a beneficiary of this tip who IS NOT A PIRATE or LICENSE ABUSER.

EricoF3 said:

"Ok so now Apple sell Upgrade too... All apple *fan* here pass a conciderable amount off time to convice us that Apple don't sell useless upgrade in previous blog entries and now Apple sells OSX upgrade for 29$ ...

Incredible..."

No, the Mac users have been claiming that Apple only sells full versions.

Its others that claim Apple only sells upgrades.

@yoshipod: rr0de74@live.com just told above that Apple sell 29$ upgrade...

So Apple don't sell OSX upgrades...

@rrode

"Are you going to buy a new copy of Windows 7"

No I have my Vista install disks, a full retail version of Vista Ultimate I got on sale. What will people do who buy new computers that the vendors are too cheap to include restore media, they have activated copies of Vista or XP on there motherboards MS knows this, they should be able to do a clean install with upgrade media but will have to call MS.

" rr0de74@live.com just told above that Apple sell 29$ upgrade..."

I must be missing that.  I don't see any post where he mentions a $29 upgrade.

So Apple has an upgrade price for the product which is something entirely different from.....  

The actual media/code is the full install and does not do any checking of what its being installed on or has no method for checking if there is a previous OS.

This is bad how?  Why does it matter if they have a upgrade price yet the media is not really upgrade media?  

Sure some people will abuse it, 99% of which will be owners of Apple hardware.  I think Apple cares, but not so much because their real money comes from hardware sales.  Vs MS who has to care because they dont sell hardware....or enough that either works (360) or matters (Zune) and their real money comes from software sales.

@mikegalos: "Because the license agreement doesn't allow you to install it on any computer but an Apple Macintosh which ONLY is available with a Mac OS X license."

Dude, here's the difference. With Windows, if you try to install a Vista "upgrade" on a bare drive, and you don't have your original program discs, you have to resort to Paul's published hack. The OSX installer requires no such calisthenics. Technically, without that Windows disc, you're in violation of the licensing agreement, but not with OSX. You don't have to call the manufacturer for the OEM CD, or take WaeWrong's advice and contact some dodgy third party to try to find one, hoping against hope that it's still available. You just install the damn thing. Simple. You can use whatever semantic trick you want to call it an "ugrade", but it's a full version. Period.

@Waethorn: "Each one sold subsidizes the Steve Jobs Hospice Fund."

That's exactly the kind of classless comment I'd expect from you, "WaeWrong". Thanks for not letting me down.

I find it fascinating that the only people here not defending Paul are the über-WinJihadist and the Bargain Basement System Builder. Interesting.

@whiplash.  I have many times for relatives and family friends taken a brand new Vista computer wiped the drive clean, installed the same version that was on the computer from media I had, and used the key on the sticker.  It does not work and you must call MS.  I tell them exactly what I did and they give me a very long code to type in and it then works fine.

I do this to get rid of all of the junk on the box and install only what they need.  Its a pain but I have seriously done this probably 15 times and it always works.  I would think that 7 would be the same thing.

WaeWrong that is perfect!!!

"That's exactly the kind of classless comment I'd expect from you"

Ya, you know, cuz calling Ballmer "Monkey Boy" is so much more mature.

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As the only requirement is that you own an eligible license of a previous version of Windows, why doesn't it just ask for that license key?

While not everyone has their install media anymore, if they're running a legit copy of windows (the only people eligible *anyway*) they will be able to easily find their product key. A simple confirmation during the install process that they in fact have a legal license seems a fairly simple and painless way to go about it. No mucking about with installing twice or "hacks."

Windows 7, innovative? Welcome to 2001.

http://twitpic.com/nffz6

@dhipstadmin: "I've noticed a trend among the Apple lovers now that Windows 7 is out and is actually quite good."

This is what all you Microtards said when Vista came out. Look at how badly that ended. nice try.

Good post Paul

Some common sense where none is forthcoming from Microsoft. You are correct in saying that Microsoft should have documented this long ago instead of leaving genuine users up in the air. Instead of clarity we get muddy waters.

If Microsoft had set this (upgrade media) up properly there would or should not be a need for hacking into the windows registry. They had plenty of time between RTM and GA to educate users about all upgrade scenario's and document it clearly.

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I'm a bit confused here. If you purchaed the upgrade, isn't that all you should be able to do? If you want a clean install, buy the full version. Seems simple to me. And although I am a confirmed Windows guy, this does have a faint ring of "getting around" the EULA to it. Or as it's commonly called "Piracy". You really can't blame Microsoft for putting a stop to this nonsense and Paul can whine all he wants but Microsoft is right.

Paul's main point  is  about the lack of communication from Microsoft. The fact is the upgrade media will do a clean install if your drive had a copy of Vista, XP, or 2000 already on it.

But what if your hard drive is small or getting dicey and you want to upgrade the hard drive. Is it reasonable to expect us to clone our old drive onto the new one just to blow the partition away and do a clean install?

Paul,

YOU DA MAN!!!! Your consumer advocate hat cannot be topped by many. As you said, if you have a legal license to upgrade, then you are not pirating. Keep the faith bro.

Doc

Microsoft's position is puzzling.  If we didn't have the registry option we would all just do the double install like we did with vista.  So in essence, Microsoft would rather make it as difficult as possible on their users to use their product.    Design decisions like this one gave us Vista's UAC.

I did thoroughly enjoy Paul's indignation.  He just cannot take any criticism of his position ever, he derails when it happens.  

Microsoft brought this problem on themselves by not making a simple way for a person to upgrade. Why not just allow someone to put their previous legal key in to allow the install? Given the intellect in Redmond, I'm continually surprised by the lack of common sense.    

@gfryesc1: go play in trafic

Paul,

Thank you for standing up for Windows users. The two things that absolutely annoy the hell out of me with Windows has to be Windows Genuine Advantage and the BS upgrade dog and pony show we have to go through.

This is where I'm with Mac users. Cut the crap, Microsoft. Make this SIMPLE! When is Microsoft going to figure out their draconian schemes DO NOT WORK?!?!?! All this means of protection catches most times legitimate persons who have own multiple copies of Windows XP or Vista and are getting screwed.

I think for the Windows 8 milestone, beta, and RC program, we need to make it clear that Microsoft needs to end this criminalization of consumers and make this thing smooth. I also think WGA needs to be scaled back. Instead of criminalizing the end user, it needs to be pro end user. I think users need to make it clear, this is two areas we want improved dramatically.

Now I do hope that in the Windows 8 timeline, we end the multi sku scheme. A lot of stuff to bring to the next testing for the next version.

"Cut the crap, Microsoft. Make this SIMPLE! When is Microsoft going to figure out their draconian schemes DO NOT WORK?!?!?! All this means of protection catches most times legitimate persons who have own multiple copies of Windows XP or Vista and are getting screwed."

The argument is that for every 1 person that does this legitimately, there are probably 10 people that won't pay full price for a license, or will install the same license on multiple PC's.  I get asked that at least once a week:  "why can't I run the same copy on multiple PC's?  I own a legitimate copy...."

That's just not how it works.  1 license per PC, and this stops most of the casual copiers.  The percentage of casual copiers would easily outnumber the count of "real pirates" if they didn't have these kinds of antipiracy measures in place.  After all, look what the MP3 format did to music.  The creators never thought about copy control, and some enterprising individuals took advantage of that - they created Napster.  The rest is history, as is the formerly-thriving music industry.

It's Microsoft's product, and they choose how to license it.  If you don't like it, don't use it.  It hasn't prevented most people from giving it up though.

Microsoft really does not care.  If they did the upgrade would be simple and there would be a single version, Ultimate, for $99 or whatever.

They don't care because 99% of Windows 7 sales are going to come from corporate SA agreements or new consumer PC's.  The 1% that actually purchase an upgrade (actually purchase not pirate) can basically kiss their arseeee.

All this biatching and moaning is a total waste of time.

Interesting study about Windows and OS X users

www.airbagindustries.com/.../spaceman.php

Extremely accurate results.

Great job Paul!  I bought (2) copies of the Windows 7 Upgrade Software because it was such a deal and I fully expected that I could do a clean install on my PC or any of my future PC's (only 1 per license) with the upgrade media as long as I provided my valid XP or Vista license (which I have both).

WTF MS, I suppose your daring ppl to pirate, we'll if you keep pulling this BS, that's exactly what ppl will do!  Its your own damn fault for not clarifying and that little pawn partner posting his blogs about SuperSite and others "hacking" the install and "Shut It" !!!

Why is anyone insisting that Microsoft was in any way ambiguous?

Upgrade options have been very clear. One may perform an in-place upgrade or a clean install where Vista is installed.

One has to perform a "custom" / clean install if they are upgrading from Windows XP.

In all cases, custom/clean, or in-place, an authorized product has to be installed first.

Paul and others insist that one should be able to use a clean drive without an authorized product being present. The terms are clear - you cannot - even though technically you may be able to get away with it.

Paul contends that all these people already own a qualifiying product. Really? Truly qualified? How would Microsoft know that.

Bottom line. If you want to do clean installs on wiped, or new hard drives, install an authorized product first, or buy a full retail copy of the product.

Do not buy OEM copies and think you are kidding anyone - those are intended for guys like me who build systems for people.

The rules are the rules. Either play by them, or do not - but spare any of us the outrage. If you do not like the rules, don't buy the product. If enough people also do not buy the product, the rules will change and the company will sell for less, or change the rules.

I build systems for ppl too and I stand behind Paul and Millions of others that will run into the same trap w/ Upgrade Media when they have played by the rules and own legal copies of Windows XP or Vista.

Nobody likes a "Dirty Install"  ~

@zillatech,

Great - that being the case, those people certainly may do a clean install - it is called custom and moves all old data, favorites, etc.. to Windows.old

OR

The may use the easy as pie User State Migration Tool (USMT) and migrate the whole works to another drive and again do a custom/clean install.

Nothing about the rules prevents this and in each case as listed, the results are the same - a clean install.

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"Do not buy OEM copies and think you are kidding anyone - those are intended for guys like me who build systems for people."

BS I know lots of people that buy OEM.  These people would never call MS for support, because they are in IT or very savvy computer users.

www.newegg.com/.../Product.aspx

Newegg wont stop you.  Besides Activation problems MS wont help you but who cares.  www.google.com will probably give you a better, faster answer to a problem than first level MS support.

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LMFAO! Broken promises, broken promises.....

On the last step of the upgrade (transferring files/programs/etc), my laptop rebooted and came to a screen telling me the upgrade was unsuccessful and my previous OS files would now be restored. My laptop is now in what seems to be a loop of restarting and trying to restore the files.

Each copy of Windows I have are genuine (not pirated or anything), and I ran the Windows 7 Upgrade Compatibility Advisor and received no warnings from it before attempting to upgrade. My laptop meets the minimum requirements for upgrade.

I've just read the whole Microsoft post. And I have to conclude that as an unbiased bystander - I see no evidence of this being a slap to Paul for publishing these information.

I find it only to be a slap to all the bloggers out there that (on purpose or not) are informing "the uninformed" that they can buy Upgrade licence and use it as full licence. Which of course is not always correct, as is nicely explained in detail in the same article. This sentence explains it real nicely: "Because of this, I am putting this post up to try and clarify the truth behind what an upgrade license is and provides so that hopefully people will not find themselves misled..."

Paul - if you start taking things out of context you'll end up like a crusader. You know, Bible being the non-violent holy book, preaching love and peace to all man kind, etc etc, but which some people used as a reason for bloody wars through many centuries yadda yadda... Don't do that, please rise yourself above it.

At everyone else, perhaps you should read the article as well. Perhaps if you've read this one single sentence you'd stop blaming Microsoft so much:

"If the posts or write-ups you saw did include this information, then kudos to that writer for providing the accurate information"

Oh, and Paul, don't you see yourself in this sentence? Perhaps you published this blog post so you COULD be in that group of people as well, since you forgot to mention "that little detail" before? ;) :P

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rrode said: "BS I know lots of people that buy OEM.  These people would never call MS for support, because they are in IT or very savvy computer users."

Ok. So. It does not change the fact that the EULA on an OEM copy of Windows is very clear about who it is intended for - systems builders, who build and then re-sell complete computers.

Once again, rules. Play by them, or do not - up to you, and as I said, just spare us the outrage and stop justifying breaking them. You call BS on anyone pointing them out? Don't you see how wrong that is?

The rules are as clear as they ever have been.

"I may have misunderstood, but this seems to be a problem in cases where you need to do a clean upgrade, such as 32-64, or if your system has problems and you need to reinstall."

No and yes.  the 32 to 64-bit upgrade is supported.  You need to do a clean install, but it works fine with the upgrade media. The real issue is the reinstall that you talk about, and only when you are talking about a virgin hard drive.

"This is what all you Microtards said when Vista came out. Look at how badly that ended. nice try."

Of course this is only one example, but one need not look very far to see plenty of issues with SL as well.  I'm not here to make a generalization, unlike RJ and his ilk.  All operating systems have problems.  Only the Mac camp is indignant about it.

www.engadget.com/.../27-inch-imacs-having-performance-issues

Money quote:

"Hey PC, did you hear? The new iMacs are out, and they're not going to have problems they didn't have before. Trust me."

FYI,

I just read the EULA for Windows 7 (Home Premium), for the packaged version off the shelf, not OEM preinstalled software.

"15. UPGRADES. To use upgrade software, you must first be licensed for the software that is eligible for the upgrade. Upon upgrade, this agreement takes the place of the agreement for the software you upgraded from. After you upgrade, you may no longer use the software you upgraded from."

Nowhere does it state that the previously licensed software must be installed.  Therefore, if you are entitled to an upgrade, there is no legal restriction that you must have a previously licensed version of windows *currently installed*.  So, if an Upgrade media disc allows you to do a full install, you are not breaking any laws, if you are entitled to that upgrade.  Since the Upgrade media ALLOWS this to happen, you are not breaking the EULA clauses regarding working around restrictions in the software.

I read the EULA, so I have some expertise in this area.

lketchum,

Am I allowed to buy an OEM license, install it on a computer, sell it to my parents at a massive discount, iet's say 99%, and then have them give me that same computer back as a gift?

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panache

"I read the EULA, so I have some expertise in this area."

See, you ARE capable of learning.

Waethorn  said:

"Those are some pretty rich people seeing as how they each purchased over 150,000 Macs last quarter!"

Nope.  Just one each.  Each one sold subsidizes the Steve Jobs Hospice Fund.

***************************

Waethorn said:

"That's exactly the kind of classless comment I'd expect from you"

Ya, you know, cuz calling Ballmer "Monkey Boy" is so much more ma

**************************

Yeah because poking fun at someone dancing around on stage is the same thing as mocking someone's near death experience.

Erico, go back to English class.

Got my Windows 7 Home Premium upgrade package yesterday.

It looks so nice in the box, I don't want to unwrap it to install it!

Don't be jealous!

@gfryesc1: This is my English class  :) lol

Thanks to all of you, I learn a lot by reading and writing here... Just hope you see a little improvement over time ...

"Yeah because poking fun at someone dancing around on stage is the same thing as mocking someone's near death experience."

In one point, losta is mocking what he would call Ballmer's, ahem, mental deficiencies.  In the other, I'm mocking Jobs's in return - his immuno-deficiencies.

To all of those on here that feel the need to attack Erico for his poor English, Seriously? How childish and rude. It's like kicking a 5th grader because they don't know Calculus, it's just something they don't know yet.

Erico makes plenty of factually incorrect, uninformed, and baseless statements (not to mention poorly thought out personal attacks), that there is plenty of content in what he is *trying* to say that there is no need to go so low as to attack his command of a foreign language.

And Erico, do yourself a favor my friend, lay off the "shut up, go home, play in the street" and foul mouthed remarks. No body appreciates it, it does little to advance the conversation and compounds the problems already inherent in the language barrier. I take the time to read what you have to say, and I am pretty good at working through the language difficulty, but really? Please don't waste my time by making bellow the belt remarks. You sell yourself short when you resort to poorly worded personal attacks.

Waethorn,

You prove yourself to be more and more of a jackass the more you make fun of a human being's health problems.

If you can't see how making fun of someone for acting silly on a stage vs making fun of someone's failing health, then you really are the lowest kind of trash on Earth.

danieldecker,

well said.

@panache1023

Ditto.

@danieldecker: Ok Daniel, I accept you coments... Some times I am going on the wrong path, I admit it!!

I have difficulty to contain myself when I see some of you talking with sarcasm about my poor english by telling I am drunk all the time and things like that so... I try to fight fire with fire but as my english is far to be perfect, may be I  am just going to far... sometimes...

Please excuse me all, I will stop that, but, I ask you all, please help me with my english rather than telling silly things about me and my language...

Thanks Daniel.

I agree Erico, is usally waaaaay off base, but lambasting him for his English? That is a low blow and an unwarranted one IMHO. Something I'd expect from certain members of the site, read below.

Waethorn-

You can try all the revisionist history you want to, but you have been dropping these "lame jokes" about a very serious medical condition for a while now. At one point on this blog you used "Skeletor" to describe his appearance... sorry in no way can you justify it.

"then you really are the lowest kind of trash on Earth"

+1

@danieldecker you are right about making fun of Erico's broken english.  However he asks for it with his "Erico makes plenty of factually incorrect, uninformed, and baseless statements (not to mention poorly thought out personal attacks),"  If his statements or questions were sensible, produced with tact and lacked the stupid attacks and other weird stuff, I would not even see the language barrier.

"If you can't see how making fun of someone for acting silly on a stage vs making fun of someone's failing health, then you really are the lowest kind of trash on Earth."

"sorry in no way can you justify it. "

You mean like insulting peoples nationalities, parentage, inability to spell, or generalizing their career by calling them "just another dipsh_t".  Yes how do you justify that?

Waethorn,

First of all, you are quoting something I said and then say, "ou mean like insulting peoples nationalities, parentage, inability to spell, or generalizing their career by calling them "just another dipsh_t""

You used my quote in your non-sense, therefore part of that comment comes my way, which is out of line since i never did those things.

Secondly, you are comparing making fun of someone that is NOT DYING, to making fun of someone that IS DYING, or ALMOST DYING, or ALMOST DIED.

So, once again, you prove yourself to be just a piece of trash.

@All - You guys are all really so simple minded. Your trash talk against each other has moved to another level and lowered Paul's blog to the likes of JAF (just another flamewar". I used to get usefull information here, but that ended a long time ago, and the entertainmnet value is disappearing quickly. Each of you is as guilty of the same things as the ones that you are pointing fingers at.

@Paul - Its too bad to see this happen, as I have been reading and learning from your sites for more than a decade. Today I will be requesting to have my account removed.

--tayme

"You used my quote in your non-sense, therefore part of that comment comes my way, which is out of line since i never did those things."

Nope.  Just wondering where your outrage is for those people....

"Secondly, you are comparing making fun of someone that is NOT DYING, to making fun of someone that IS DYING, or ALMOST DYING, or ALMOST DIED."

And yet he's not.  So now we can laugh about it.  He even made jokes himself at the last WWDC.  Seriously though, when he does kick the bucket, as everybody will, are you going to raise him to some kind of martyrdom status?  He's just a man, which you seem to forget.  He isn't Apple incarnate.  If you really believe he is, then when he goes, Apple dies too.

No Waethorn, I'm not going to lift him up?

Will lift up Bill Gates, or Ballmer?

Regardless, that isn't the point.

Steve Jobs made fun of his health, fine...it's his health.  I doubt he made fun of a serious situation in order to taunt people as you do.

Also, where is my outrage that someone made fun of another person's online handle on a blog?  Are you serious?!

Notice that I have many times said things to people about making fun of EricoF3's english...yet even still, how you can compare that to making fun of someone's health is hard to believe.

What's harder to believe is that you are still trying to justify your insults.  The more you do it, the bigger piece of garbage you expose yourself to be.

"gfryesc1  said:

Erico, go back to English class."

Yeah, you're lame. Stop blasting Erico for his English. Seriously.

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