Put Windows Live on your Windows Mobile phone

re: Put Windows Live on your Windows Mobile phone

Waethorn — Thu, 22 May 2008 20:37:22 GMT

"Apple never was even close to being one for their OS."

No, but they were - once. They will never be again though. They currently are a monopoly in the online consumer media distribution market though, and the lock-in with the iPod is obvious.

"It's distribution for free is called "price dumping"."

Actually, it's called "predatory pricing". "Price dumping" is something that you do to a foreign market to suffocate the local competition.

"The fact that Microsoft instantly abandoned improvement to IE as soon as total dominance was achieved and only resumed development a half-decade later is proof of the destructive force that monopoly has on innovation."

LOL! That's the LAMEST excuse I've ever heard. Firefox came from near nothingness, and yet Microsoft hardly stopped the innovation that came from it. Microsoft found that the market was satisfied with what they offered, and indeed early versions of Firefox were just sad.

"How would you feel if Rogers began giving away PCs for free? How would that affect your business. I'm talking about the same exact PCs you sell, being given away for free and subsidized by their internet/tv monopoly."

You mean like Telus and Bell already do? I've talked to exactly 1 person that considered one, compared the specs to what I offer, and then considered the subsidy premium, and they ended up buying a more expensive computer from me. The subsidy premium actually makes the system very expensive to buy outright. I don't even offer financing myself, but the systems that they offer are just weak, budget machines that are overpriced.

"marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx

Ok so here's a few questions for you:

Do you honestly believe that 6% is representative of only Mac users worldwide even though market research shows it as being half of that? Conversely, do you believe that 6%, which is representative of US Mac marketshare, makes up the same percentage of total Mac users online out of the entire computer industry? Do you believe that a good chunk of that percentage isn't just Windows users that had Safari thrust upon them from the previous months Apple Software Update bundling? Do you think that analysts that say that Apple's malware bundling of Safari is a primary cause, are in fact, wrong? Did you retrieve those results using a free account to NetApps, not being able to see the differences by OS?

If you answered "yes" to any of those questions, you're a bigger tool then I thought.

Microsoft » Blog Archive » re: Put Windows Live on your Windows Mobile phone

Microsoft » Blog Archive » re: Put Windows Live on your Windows Mobile phone — Sun, 18 May 2008 04:27:25 GMT

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re: Put Windows Live on your Windows Mobile phone

johnpapola — Sun, 18 May 2008 02:22:14 GMT

"Trying to bash Microsoft for business practises that are good for their shareholders, while trying to defend Apple for the same thing clearly demonstrates that you are a one-sided fanboy troll."

No, it just shows how you know absolutely nothing about economics or law. Microsoft is and was a monopoly. Apple never was even close to being one for their OS. Microsoft's bundling was illegal because of the monopoly. It's distribution for free is called "price dumping".

The fact that Microsoft instantly abandoned improvement to IE as soon as total dominance was achieved and only resumed development a half-decade later is proof of the destructive force that monopoly has on innovation.

"Netscape felt threatened"

Microsoft felt threatened and so they killed netscape using methods proven to be illegal in a court of law through abuse of their monopoly. How would you feel if Rogers began giving away PCs for free? How would that affect your business. I'm talking about the same exact PCs you sell, being given away for free and subsidized by their internet/tv monopoly. Are you starting to get it through your granite-thick skull?

Go get your sorry, ignorant butt some education about history and economics before you this debate again.

"Conversely, if you look at Apple, they are their own OEM, and they always include Safari, and yet Safari still isn't used as much as Firefox is on the Mac"

WHAT? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA... Where did you come up with THAT? That is 100%, unequivocally FALSE. A complete and utter LIE. TOTAL LIE.

Either come up with hard numbers for this statement, or you're a liar. I assume you can't explain this:

marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx

Safari having almost 6% overall worldwide share alone make your statement an obvious lie.

re: Put Windows Live on your Windows Mobile phone

Waethorn — Sat, 17 May 2008 15:50:05 GMT

"It's indisputable fact that Internet Explorer gained dominance through it's bundling with Windows. My point was very simple, but since you're a partisan drone, all you're capable of doing is indiscriminately bashing anything Apple does."

Internet Explorer may have gained some marketshare because OEM's were forced to include it, but the real reason Netscape went after Microsoft is because the web browser was the basis for their whole revenue stream. Netscape felt threatened. IE wasn't bundled until later after Netscape started giving away their browser, in response to Microsoft doing the same, from the start. In the meantime, Microsoft had aggressively marketed Windows as something new - an Internet-enabled OS, which is what garnered sales, and locked Microsoft into the top of the OS segment.

Conversely, if you look at Apple, they are their own OEM, and they always include Safari, and yet Safari still isn't used as much as Firefox is on the Mac. The whole bundling argument has completely been debunked.

The real reason why IE gained dominance is because the competition was charging for a product that Microsoft gave away for free. Trying to bash Microsoft for business practises that are good for their shareholders, while trying to defend Apple for the same thing clearly demonstrates that you are a one-sided fanboy troll.

re: Put Windows Live on your Windows Mobile phone

johnpapola — Sat, 17 May 2008 11:20:48 GMT

A Classically illogical response that's also a complete dodge of the conversation.

It's indisputable fact that Internet Explorer gained dominance through it's bundling with Windows. My point was very simple, but since you're a partisan drone, all you're capable of doing is indiscriminately bashing anything Apple does.

It's just so pathetic.

re: Put Windows Live on your Windows Mobile phone

Waethorn — Sat, 17 May 2008 00:33:47 GMT

"The right analogy would be that Internet Explorer dominates because it's tied to Windows"

That's funny.

Funny because even though Safari comes with OS X, most people in their right mind will tell you it's a PoS, and use Firefox instead. I guess that shoots your theory all to hell....

re: Put Windows Live on your Windows Mobile phone

johnpapola — Fri, 16 May 2008 23:05:00 GMT

"the reason that OS X is not the number 1 OS is that MS didn't do "

Tayme... you don't understand.

Your analogy is fundamentally flawed. The right analogy would be that Internet Explorer dominates because it's tied to Windows, which has 95% marketshare just as iTunes dominate because it's tied to the iPod.

iTunes dominates because it's the iPod's store. If he Zune had 70%+ marketshare, Zune marketplace would dominate digital downloads. That's pretty obvious.

Therefore, since over 70% of all digial music players are iPods, any music service that isn't iPod-compatible simply doesn't have much of a market.

This is pretty simple logic, here. Not partisan hackery. Like I said, I think subscriptions are a great idea and I hope Apple includes a service with iTunes soon.

re: Put Windows Live on your Windows Mobile phone

tayme — Fri, 16 May 2008 14:26:16 GMT

@jp - "And the simple reason for that is that iTunes doesn't do it"

So then, the reason that OS X is not the number 1 OS is that MS didn't do it? Using your flawed theory, that is what you are saying. You see, a statement like that is very fanboyish.

--tayme

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re: Put Windows Live on your Windows Mobile phone

johnpapola — Fri, 16 May 2008 02:16:58 GMT

"Now you're trying to make it the labels fault because you are a blind Apple-loving one-note hack."

- Why aren't you capable of giving Apple any credit at all ever, Waethorn? Why? Jobs came out against DRM in music. Doug Morris of Universal, far-and-away the largest label, has made it clear that he wants to break Apple's dominance with everything shy of withdrawing the library from the store (since that would clearly cause a shareholder revolt and boot his butt outta there). DRM-free going to Amazon first is not Apple's fault. That is an objective fact and yet you're incapable of conceding this basic point.

"Your argument means nothing, because the ratio of legitimate music downloaders to iPod purchasers is actually quite small"

- Thanks for blowing a truck-sized hole in your own fallacious "lock-in" argument. Of course. The average iPod has something like three albums of iTunes store music out of it's 4 to 160 gigs. There is NO ITUNES LOCK-IN. Thanks for the flip-flop.

"Then why bother putting the DRM in there in the first place?....Because Jobs is bending over backwards (or is that forwards?) to have his cake and eat it too."

- I really think you might be a complete idiot. Because the labels contractually demand it. Again. For the millionth time.

"WRONG! As I mentioned (sarcastically, since you didn't seem to understand that) that DVD sales were amazing up until people were diving into P2P and Bittorrent sites. Legitimate digital distribution (via iTunes) did nothing for it."

- Um... can you read? I was saying that iTunes is selling a trivial amount of video content. I guess when you actually agree with me, you have to pretend I said the EXACT OPPOSITE in order to disagree.

"Making FairPlay interoperable would make him eat his words."

- except of course that Microsoft couldn't even get it to work and abandoned it for the closed Zune... and there isn't a single WMA store that support the mac.

"Jobs-O kept FairPlay to himself to sell more iPods."

- Nope. He did it in order to make sure it works and your music doesn't lose it's authorization before that 10 hour flight the way playsforsure was doing to people....Oh... and Microsoft closed their DRM with the Zune FOR THE SAME REASON. How do you explain that?

"Clearly, sarcasm is lost on you"

- Nope. I get the sarcasm. I guess you're arguing that all video should be DRM-free because of kids movies? There's some truth there so if you were capable of having a real discussion with a mac user and TV exec, we could explore that. But I've tried for so long now and you seem to be simply incapable of it. Instead, you just like to get your jollies off of these sad "gotchas" that are usually way off. Not always, but often. What a shame and a waste of a good forum.

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Bittorrent » Bittorrent ?? re: Put Windows Live on your Windows Mobile phone — Thu, 15 May 2008 23:53:00 GMT

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Bittorrent » re: Put Windows Live on your Windows Mobile phone — Thu, 15 May 2008 21:50:16 GMT

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re: Put Windows Live on your Windows Mobile phone

Waethorn — Thu, 15 May 2008 21:14:38 GMT

"Everyone knows that the Labels are trying to weaken iTunes by withholding the tracks."

Now you're trying to make it the labels fault because you are a blind Apple-loving one-note hack.

There. That's better.

"Satellite radio is a different beast..."

Just like DRM is OK for video, but not for audio, eh?

"and even that is still a relatively small user base compared to the iPod alone."

But satellite radio subscribers all have to pay. I guess that's where DRM is OK for audio then too, hmm? Your argument means nothing, because the ratio of legitimate music downloaders to iPod purchasers is actually quite small (much less than satellite radio subscribers).

"It's so trivial to remove the DRM through burning a disc that it's simply a non-issue."

Then why bother putting the DRM in there in the first place?....Because Jobs is bending over backwards (or is that forwards?) to have his cake and eat it too.

"Movie and TV sales have been tiny compared to the iPod user base (not even close to 1 show/movie per ipod)."

WRONG! As I mentioned (sarcastically, since you didn't seem to understand that) that DVD sales were amazing up until people were diving into P2P and Bittorrent sites. Legitimate digital distribution (via iTunes) did nothing for it.

"How does this make Steve Jobs dishonest?"

Making FairPlay interoperable would make him eat his words. The rest of the music industry accepted PlaysForSure's open architecture across many different devices, online systems, and applications. Jobs-O kept FairPlay to himself to sell more iPods. If they can't open up the DRM to competition and continue to sell iPods on their own merit, then it'll make a liar out of him. He's not willing to take that chance though, so honesty is not something he wears on his turtleneck these days.

"What's your point?"

Clearly, sarcasm is lost on you, much like the rest of the discussion.

re: Put Windows Live on your Windows Mobile phone

johnpapola — Thu, 15 May 2008 21:10:10 GMT

@tayme

I think Apple is doing everything they can (and more than anyone else) in pushing back on the labels for low prices and no DRM. We can only know what's going on behind the scenes. I think the fact is that iTunes DRM is not enough of a problem for enough people for Apple to move in the direction you're suggesting and boycott DRM labels. I suggest you read up on Doug Morris and Universal to get a little perspective on the people Jobs has to content with. This guy makes it seems like hurting iTunes is more important than selling music. Think about how irrational that is.

As for subscription... they're a great idea, but they're certainly not a market success. And the simple reason for that is that iTunes doesn't do it. iTunes got huge because the iPod is dominant. Now, that iTunes has clout in its own right and is the default place for people to go for digital media. It's reinforced by the ecosystem from co-promotion on TV to iTunes tags in HD radio.

So you may have tiny patches of subscription music with Zune, or Yahoo, or Rapsody... but until Apple does it, it simply can't be mainstream because it can't play on the iPod. But they're a natural fit. People subscribe to TV, radio, magazines... they'll subscribe to music.