Questions and comments about Firefox 3, IE 8, the future of Web browsers, cloud computing, and how it all comes together

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re: Questions and comments about Firefox 3, IE 8, the future of Web browsers, cloud computing, and how it all comes together

subzerohitman721 — Tue, 27 May 2008 20:29:04 GMT

In terms of actual security when browsing, this is one area that I feel is desperately in need on some innovation and evolutionary development work. Each and every browser keeps coming up with vunerabilities and critical flaws. As much as people complain and rant about I.E., increasing incidents with FF and Safari shows that all of them have a long way to go. This is one area where some outside the box thinking in minimize a complete and total takeover of someone's computer. Although I have to commend Microsoft for improvments in both Vista and I.E., Safari and Firefox have their work cut out. Only recently have other IT websites been reporting on the latest rash of Firefox and Safari vunerabilities. I'm glad that we've come a long way since the original browsers of yesterday. Lets get all these browser developers working more actively on getting the security done right?

re: Questions and comments about Firefox 3, IE 8, the future of Web browsers, cloud computing, and how it all comes together

Waethorn — Tue, 27 May 2008 19:43:04 GMT

Paul, according to your sentiments about Firefox, it seems that you've reached the same conclusion that Mozilla has come to, which is the same that Microsoft made when they released Internet Explorer 6 - that the web browser is a mature platform, and further innovation and development is neither warranted, nor feasible for the most part.

Ever since they brought out tabbed browsing, which is no more than just adapting another technology into an already existing technology, it's only been baby steps towards support for new web language revisions. Calling Firefox "innovative" for bringing about tabbed browsing is disingenius at best. It's like calling a clock-radio innovative, and then doing the same with a clock-CD player.

A truly innovative "web browser" would likely look like an application that runs directly on your desktop. Not some application in a window, but DIRECTLY on your desktop, allowing fluid access from files and data from the web to your computer. This would be the ideal platform for cloud computing, and Mesh sort of incorporates that, but misses the point in the end. Copy and paste from websites should be as easy as selecting sections from a website running on your "web desktop" to a folder off the to the side. Likewise, website development should be so easy. Truly integrated web development should make the user think that they've never gone from their web browser to an editing program, nor that they've even stepped away from the page they're viewing - the only option should be user authentication to provide editing permissions (which should be transparent). Editing should be as easy as using Word or Excel, and layouts should be done automatically so that no source code is exposed to the user.

I know of a development house that's working on a project of this type, but it's quite a ways off.

"What I can imagine happening is web technologies (html, css, javascript) being used to build things that run on the desktop outside the browser, or the traditional browser interface. That's already happening with microsoft's windows sidebar"

Actually, they already did that long ago when they included HTML w/ CSS for folder views in Windows Explorer. That was back in Windows 95 with the IE4 Active Desktop add-on.

re: Questions and comments about Firefox 3, IE 8, the future of Web browsers, cloud computing, and how it all comes together

DRWAM — Tue, 27 May 2008 18:26:23 GMT

Much of the software for the medical cloud works on all platforms. MS did not bind us to IE, as it works on Firefox using Mac OS. Actually, the apps that reqiure IE were written by third parties [not MS], that did not bother to write the helper apps/plug-ins for other OS'es. SO MS did not limit us, but rather the proprietary software owners. GE Centricity comes to mind. It's a PACS solution that allows remote access using a browser [IE]

re: Questions and comments about Firefox 3, IE 8, the future of Web browsers, cloud computing, and how it all comes together

diabulos — Tue, 27 May 2008 15:34:07 GMT

As we move to a more information based situation (it does not matter what I use to access my info, the interface is irrelevant (from the point of view of the programmatic elements behind it, not the UI concept and integration).

The problem is that we have applications to access the web (more and more synonymous with 'my info') named browsers. These browsers use separate technology than the desktop environment (Plug-ins, etc) hence, merging the access of that information into the OS (as Win 98, Me, and XP did with the browser in every explorer instance) brings in issues of incompatibility and security, if the information being seen (be it XML or HTML) does something the OS was not expecting, the whole desktop shell falls down. We have clear requirements to write a Windows or OSX app, but there are few ones for a web site, and if they are there is no desire to implement them by the largest majority of web builders out there (while software makers wish their software not to crash).

Until this changes, it would be foolish to merge both worlds. Mind you, MS (more so than Apple) has done great things to bridge that integration, but still, we will have 'browser apps' as longs as the technologies used for making web sites can hijack the OS. We are moving to integrated ways of handling info on the net, XML is a great step forward to build apps on the desktop that can present 'securely' info from the net but how far it can go in terms of integration, my point above, I think, still applies.

re: Questions and comments about Firefox 3, IE 8, the future of Web browsers, cloud computing, and how it all comes together

Kirk M — Tue, 27 May 2008 12:48:33 GMT

I have to agree with Cfischer83 that MS does have the right to bundle IE with the Windows OS however, I also agree with Paul that MS went about it the wrong way. Considering that the first iteration of Win95 and IE3.0 were both no more stable nor reliable than a very early beta version at best (which the first release of Win95 virtually was. The actual "Gold" release became Win98.) Although I was in on the beta testing of Win95b through Win98, I always questioned the decision making process of bundling a then horrible browser on a rather horrible OS. It would have made much more sense to offer it as a free update. The ideal time I would think would have been with the initial release of Windows XP.

On IE 8.0; Strangely enough I firmly believe that IE and Firefox *should* be different and neither should attempt to follow the same paths as far as features are concerned. Paul is right and it's something I've said myself of late--there's only so many ways you can make your basic browser or the basic framework therein and there's simply no more new ways left. This does not mean that a new browser can't be innovative and/or evolutionary. IE 7.0 is the perfect example of what happens when a company tries to mess with the basic framework which in this case amounted to a terrible user interface on top of a basically decent browser.

BTW, the official name of the address bar in Firefox 3 is the "Location bar". "Awesome Bar" was what the developers called it and it was certain individuals who are part of the development team that first did the initials reviews and "new features in..." articles of Firefox 3 hence the confusion. I agree completely...Awesome Bar is a ridiculous name.

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re: Questions and comments about Firefox 3, IE 8, the future of Web browsers, cloud computing, and how it all comes together

Cfischer83 — Tue, 27 May 2008 06:34:38 GMT

I agree with a lot of what you say, Paul, however I disagree that IE should not have been bundled with Windows. That's more for political reasons though. A company should be allowed to do whatever they want with their own products as long as they're not preventing someone else from doing the same.

Anyway, I do agree that there are probably very few "major" new innovations that can go into a browser, I think they should move more towards making browsers render faster and take fewer resources. Even though I hate Safari with a passion, it renders javascript faster than anyone (although FF3 may give it a run for it's money) and IE and Opera are just horrible at it.

I think innovations for the future lie in web platforms. Can you imagine WPF for the web? The browser has a long ways to go to accomplish that kind of stuff, and I don't think Flash and Silverlight are the way it's going to happen. We need new protocols and core frameworks with pre-rendered libraries built for the web.... I don't care if MS makes these or not, as long as they're open for anyone to implement.

re: Questions and comments about Firefox 3, IE 8, the future of Web browsers, cloud computing, and how it all comes together

joemaruschek — Tue, 27 May 2008 04:19:24 GMT

I'm glad you caught your self suggesting that the browser be integrated into the OS, because, as you pointed out, it already is! And is that still a good idea? I don't think so, just because of the security problems. We've already seen all the holes that have to plugged when the browser lets webpage run code locally. And you want even deeper integration into the OS? I can just imagine the field day that malware authors will have now that they have even deeper hooks into the OS.

I think that the browsers should specialize in what they do best: parse and render HTML and javascript, etc. All of these new web services, even though they are presently accessible through the browser, that doesn't mean they always have to be. Local programs can call and use these web services and their APIs without using the web/HTML interface. I think that is the future, when you have more local programs taking advantage of web services. For example, the great Windows Live programs like Live Mail, Live Photo Gallery, and Live Writer. There are local, native programs that access web services without you having to open a web browser.

So instead of always opening up a web browser to a portal for all this cloud computing stuff, your local programs will just take advantage of them, perhaps without you even being aware of it. Thus, the web browser doesn't have to grow any more powerful in order to run more and more complex things inside of it.

re: Questions and comments about Firefox 3, IE 8, the future of Web browsers, cloud computing, and how it all comes together

Lindy — Tue, 27 May 2008 04:15:56 GMT

MS will try everything it can to tie you to its products.

IE is almost required for most of MS cloud products. With out it things like hotmail (or whatever they call it this week, MSN mail, live mail) are not as feature rich. I think this is back firing for them. If I cant get the same experience with a cloud offering with Firefox as I can with IE....I wont use it.

The only thing MS stumbled on is the fact that they are late to the game.

The cloud or WWW2 or whatever you call it is going to do one thing for sure in the long run. Free people of MS products, and let the user choose the OS they want.

re: Questions and comments about Firefox 3, IE 8, the future of Web browsers, cloud computing, and how it all comes together

Flenser — Tue, 27 May 2008 00:55:03 GMT

I don't think the browser will ever be the interface of the OS, I can't imagine accessing my file system through Firefox, or IE for that matter. They're too bloated an interface.

What I can imagine happening is web technologies (html, css, javascript) being used to build things that run on the desktop outside the browser, or the traditional browser interface. That's already happening with microsoft's windows sidebar and google desktop gadgets, and also with site specific browsers like Prism. But that's not the same as using the browser as the interface to the OS; in fact the reverse is happening. Cloud computing is about moving the resources away from the local machine, and the confines of the OS and onto the web. So the browser will become the interface more and more, but not to what's on the local machine. The browser will be the interface to resources that have migrated away from the local machine onto the web.

I think Microsoft is being forced to play somebody else's game, and even if they win, they'll loose. Because once we're in an era where the browser is the interface to all our cloud computing resources it will become a commodity and the need for compatibility will dictate that no browser make will be able to lock in users to their browser because the majority of websites will not want to lock users into one browser's features so they will always target the lowest common denominator. You can see this in the way today's websites and the advice that is given by the proponents of web standards try to be browser agnostic and seek to smooth out differences between browsers.

In a world where the largest development platform (the web) is OS agnostic Microsoft will find itself without a monopoly and on a level playing field with other browser manufacturers. Microsoft having to play on a level playing field with other competitors for the first time will probably be a good thing for users. And I've no doubt they will prosper for many years to come. But the danger for them will be that once they loose control over the interface that most people use to access their computing resources, we won't need them any more, and will find it increasingly easier to get by without using their products.

Also, I disagree that Firefox 3 isn't innovative. Scott Berkun wrote an excellent essay on What innovation means[1] and in some of his speaking engagements [2] he has made the point that innovation is "introducing something new" even if iit's been done before introducing it to a new audience can be innovation. So whilst there are obvious antecedents to the awesome bar (Scott makes the point that there are no innovations without antecedents, so all innovation builds upon what came before so you can't really have any progress but by evolution), introducing a feature like the awesome bar to searching browser history, and making it available to all of Firefox's users is innovative.

Calling IE8s new features Innovative, as if they weren't also evolutionary in the same way Firefox's new features are is disingenuous. Paul has talked before about influences for them in previous Microsoft products, and they have also been experimented with by the Mozilla community for some time now in the Mozilla and Microformats community with Firefox addons such as Operator. So IE8s new features are just as evolutionary as Firefox's.

Also, the area where Mozilla really innovates is in the process it uses to create the browser. (You can innovate in how you make something without the final product necessarily being innovative.) Microsoft will always be playing catchup to Mozilla because there's no way they could ever develop a browser in the same way. They're stuck with their traditional development process and hindered by having to pay the Microsoft Strategy Tax [3].

[1] www.scottberkun.com/.../what-innovation-means-a-short-report

[2] www.scottberkun.com/.../podcastslides-from-web-directions-07-finally-up

[3] www.25hoursaday.com/.../PermaLink.aspx

re: Questions and comments about Firefox 3, IE 8, the future of Web browsers, cloud computing, and how it all comes together

DRWAM — Mon, 26 May 2008 23:54:45 GMT

I guess that life is relative. I look at a Windows Mobile device after using my Treo 650 and think wow, is that sweet. this new iPhone maybe a consideration, but there is so much to offer from WinMobile for my use that I may pass. Heck, I still prefer the features of the aging Palm OS and numerous apps, over that of the iPhone gen. 1.

re: Questions and comments about Firefox 3, IE 8, the future of Web browsers, cloud computing, and how it all comes together

pthurrott — Mon, 26 May 2008 21:21:33 GMT

You know, I considered that, but the notion of the browser of ten-fifteen years ago supplanting Windows seemed far fetched at the time. Obviously, they took Netscape seriously enough to put them out of commission by any means necessary. But I can't imagine they foresaw the pervasive, interconnected world we're moving into now. If they had, Windows Mobile wouldn't be a joke, Office would have had seriously online hooks years ago, and so on. I think all they really saw was some vague threat to Windows and just acted out of pure protectionism. Which is fine. But it's interesting that the way things are turning out, it was ultimately the right choice.

re: Questions and comments about Firefox 3, IE 8, the future of Web browsers, cloud computing, and how it all comes together

bobsil1 — Mon, 26 May 2008 20:45:26 GMT

The MS team quickly figured this out, it's not something they 'stumbled upon.' Read the Internet Tidal Wave memo and others floating around company. They knew the browser would become an app platform by around '95-96, and they tried shoehorning the entire Windows and app development UIs into a browser metaphor in succeeding versions of Visual Studio.