Tech press continues bashing Windows Vista

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re: Tech press continues bashing Windows Vista

Dipsh t Admin — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:43:00 GMT

Well said, sub. And the informed response is a perfect foil for the trolling drivel that drylight posts.

re: Tech press continues bashing Windows Vista

drylight — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 23:35:05 GMT

Bashing Microsoft is so easy because they are so lame. Check out their new announcements for the "Deskless" products. Like their 'Deskless Worker Suite". What a retarded name. Typical of Microsoft to come up with lame names. They'll now be known was the "Dickless Worker Suite" of products.

re: Tech press continues bashing Windows Vista

subzerohitman721 — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 22:16:50 GMT

Snakedoctor1 stated:

"In 2007 I bought two new notebooks. A HP in Feburary with Vista Premium and a Macbook in November with Leopard. Both had 2gig of memory. Both I cleanly installed the OS on the day I opened them, even though the only real advantage for the OS X clean install was to remove languages/print drivers I did not need and the only trial ware that came with it...MS Office 2004. Vista of course had MOUTAINS of trail ware that I am sure would have made my experience even less than what it was."

First, I remember that Paul in either a WinInfo or one of the early Vista beta reviews, that Microsoft had asked PC manufactuer vendors not to include trial software in Vista. That is one of the reasons why the Vista boot screen is all black with just a progress bar. Second, if you look at most of the installation software today, there aren't as many fancy graphics. Microsoft as vendors not to put all those pictures describing features on installation packages. Microsoft itself was notorious for this, which just bogged down the install process. Now we all know that HP, Dell, and others continue this process. How can you blame Microsoft, when both of my retail copies of Vista had ZERO trial software? None. Again, that belongs to HP, Dell, and the other manufactuers.

I personally have never stated that Vista was anywhere close to being perfect. I've always been consistent that it does have issues. Many of which was resolved with service pack 1.

"The Vista box had one show stopper issue for me, the HORRIBLE networks copy speeds, and one major annoyance abysmal battery life. Even after many so called Microsoft "Performance updates"."

Service Pack 1 clearly resolved this issue and the difference between Vista and XP file copy is zero. Rehasing something that has been fixed really kills any credible arguments you have. Now the battery issue, I agree with you 110 percent. Microsoft totally fumbled the football there and even I have an axe to grind with them. So if you want to bash Vista for its battery performance, go right ahead. I won't even bother with a defense for that.

So you have an ideal experience with Leopard. Thats great!!!! I honestly am glad you are that talented. However, thats the experience I've had with Windows Vista. It hasn't been perfect but I've been able to log thousands of hours on my notebook and desktop. I've had a total of 4 minutes of downtime with Vista. Compared with my XP experiences, I had a whole lot more downtime with XP.

There are people out there who are having bad experiences with both Vista and Leopard. I don't want to diminish the genuine problems with both OSes. There are probably people more talented than either of us, having problems while some have none. Thats just the way it is.

The problem I have is with defending tech pundints who bash Vista without some concrete evidence. Nor have they tried SP 1 to see how the user experience has changed. These pundints also ignore the security improvements that Vista has to offer. Its not perfect, but a huge step up from XP.

But if you guys want to attack Vista for being 5 years late, I won't stop you guys. Once again, I concede that point. If you want to attack it for borrowing elements of Aqua, go right ahead. But remember, that the features in time machine debuted in a earier Windows Server before it ever showed up in Leopard. If you want to attack Vista for its lack of speed vs Leopard, once again I won't stand in your way. There is no defense. But underneath all those arguments, Vista is still a damn good OS. It gets the job done for me and millions of users like me.

Don't get it twisted, I like the Mac stuff but not the price. I don't like that some of the users believe the OS is perfect, I do not believe it one bit. (Nor do I believe in the concept of perfection.) I also believe the UI is dated and needs to evolve. I like the Windows hardware diversification that is not present in the Apple computing universe. These are all legitimate concerns of PC and IT users alike. Don't diminish them because of marketing hype and a contest long ago. I and many customers have a right to critique just as you do.

re: Tech press continues bashing Windows Vista

Waethorn — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 21:05:04 GMT

"we're talking about a range of devices, from Hard Drives to keyboards, mice, printers, card readers, external DVD burners, etc"

nice "range of devices" there. aside from printers, every single type of device you mention is also supported with a standard HID or generic USB driver in Windows Me (and probably versions of Mac OS that predate OS X - maybe).

"Watch for Wae's response, where he tells an apocryphal story about a mythical customer with a malfunctioning Mac that Wae converted to a PC user with his magical sales wand"

it's no myth....people that come into my store have never asked if I sell Apple systems either. had a person in the other day that said they tried their neighbours computer and really liked it - and it ran Windows Vista. they wanted to know if i took Mac's for trade-in.

i said no. >:p

they still bought a Windows Vista PC from me though. ;)

re: Tech press continues bashing Windows Vista

chuckb84 — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 18:18:59 GMT

"I'm not so much thin-skinned as I am tired of senseless Vista bashing."

That assumes that all the people doing the bashing are clueless idiots. Some may be, but the sheer volume of the complaints indicates there is more to it than that. I've no idea what the truth is, since I don't use Vista. In fact, Vista is forbidden on our office computers, which says something in itself.

"This is obviously an open forum. I don't see any need to censor anyone or whatever but I would certainly prefer for things to remain on-topic and civil."

Dropping the petulance with "iCabal" and INsiders would be a good step in that direction.

"Apple's Switcher campaign (I'm a PC, I'm a Mac) has been surprisingly effective, all while Apple has had its own very similar issues with Leopard. (No one notices.)"

Okay, we're listening. What are those "similar issues"? I will give you one thing on Leopard: On release it was the buggiest OS X release to date. But: (1) it wasn't 5 years late, (2) Apple quickly did .x releases that have fixed most of the issues.

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re: Tech press continues bashing Windows Vista

pthurrott — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 13:27:33 GMT

Well.

As expected, a firestorm.

First of all, I really respect and personally like Ina Fried. I just don't get the point of the post.

I'm not so much thin-skinned as I am tired of senseless Vista bashing. Or senseless MS bashing too. There's so much to complain about when it comes to MS. Let's not make stuff up.

This is obviously an open forum. I don't see any need to censor anyone or whatever but I would certainly prefer for things to remain on-topic and civil. If it's not, then I'll just ignore it. Life is too busy as it is to deal with silly snipers.

I bring this article up because I feel that it's representative of what's going on out there regularly. Bashing MS is like reaching for the low-hanging fruit. In the tech world, this is the equivalent of a Jay Leno opening monologue: "Did you hear the one about the Microsoft beta Web site that went up a bit late? Yeah, they can't even ship beta Web sites on time." Ba-da-dum. Yawn.

If you care to look back at the Vista launch event coverage, you'll note that I made fun of it. (I also made fun of the XP launch event. Look it up.) MS has absolutely mismanaged this. I've discussed the Vista marketing message with MS on record several times. They really need to get going on this. This week's WPC keynote was, I believe, the second time this year they've publicly stated that they're working on it. They have to work on it for three reasons:

1. The screwed up.

2. The tech press/blogosphere is remarkably anti-MS/anti-Vista to the point where improvements are never noted.

3. Apple's Switcher campaign (I'm a PC, I'm a Mac) has been surprisingly effective, all while Apple has had its own very similar issues with Leopard. (No one notices.)

Microsoft is excellent at self-flagellation. I suspect they screw up on purpose sometimes just so they can be humble about it later. OK, not really. But for a company with so many smart people ... You get the idea.

Anyway.

Moving on...

re: Tech press continues bashing Windows Vista

lotsamystuff — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 12:56:20 GMT

"If you use any third party USB device with a Mac (or PCI device with a Mac Pro), good luck getting it to work out of the box."

That's the biggest crock of "boolshyte" I've ever seen from you, Wae, and I've seen a lot. Go spread your FUD somewhere else--perhaps on your unsuspecting "Bargain Basement PC Hut" customers. What you said is just a laughable lie. The FACT is, I have well over a dozen "third party USB" devices on my various Macs, and they all worked flawlessly out of the box (and we're talking about a range of devices, from Hard Drives to keyboards, mice, printers, card readers, external DVD burners, etc). I interchange them with my PC, and have never had an issue. Not once. Same with the PCI cards in my desktop (bought off the shelf at Staples, for crying out loud). No problem.

No one's buying your line of crap, Wae. If you're going to offer up some criticism, at least make it fair and honest.

(Watch for Wae's response, where he tells an apocryphal story about a mythical customer with a malfunctioning Mac that Wae converted to a PC user with his magical sales wand)

re: Tech press continues bashing Windows Vista

dovella — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 12:15:50 GMT

excuse me my english

Paul if my link is not legal PLS REMOVE.

THX

re: Tech press continues bashing Windows Vista

dovella — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 12:11:55 GMT

Hi Paul

If you wont try

lzdqow.bay.livefilestore.com/.../WindowsAdvisor.exe

original link not work

www.microsoft.com/.../details.aspx

re: Tech press continues bashing Windows Vista

johnpapola — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 11:29:54 GMT

On a side note, Paul will be super happy that Microsoft marketing hack Brad Brooks has announced that the company is going to respond to Apple's ads. And in typical nonsensical, buzzword laden marketing speak, Brooks criticized Apple which saying that the Windows "Software out there is made to be compatible with your whole life".

Software that's compatible with my whole life! Where can I get that?!? I'd love software that's compatible with my marriage, or my relationship with my son. Or software that's compatible with family conflict.

The WinCabal likes to talk about Apple's hype and Steve's reality distortion... but nobody can spew the meaningly marketing garbage like Microsoft and their executives. Whether it's J Allard claiming the Zune is part of some larger social "connected experience" construct or this guy. These guys really need to get re-acquainted with normal english instead of internal bull$hit buzzwords. Understanding actual reality and what consumers really WANT and actually DO may just help the products. Imagine that.

re: Tech press continues bashing Windows Vista

johnpapola — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 11:12:02 GMT

Subzero,

Some good points, except for this little bit of winCabal FUD:

"Except that while Vista is growing to be more stable over time, there are continuous reports of instabilities with Leopard. One of the websites that follows some of these continued problems is MacWindows.com. I can't remember where I read the quote, but someone said that Leopard felt much like system 7.5 with its level of buggyness.

Yes, Microsoft blew the Vista launch. It blew the file copy issues and game compatibility. However, now that 18 months have passed, Vista is getting a lot better. To claim that Leopard is better when the instabilities are gaining in the press, is really a blatent lie and doesn't serve your cause. "

My comment:

Whoever claimed this is an idiot with no meaningful experience with either Leopard or OS 7.5. Leopard is a very stable OS and these 4 updates, only the first two of which were "large" (and none of which could be called "major"), has made it more-so. Paul somehow dug this quote up out of some user comments (talk about trolling around for ways to dump on Apple). This isn't "the press". It's some guy doing god-knows-what with his computer and complaining about how he broke it. That you're repeating it here as part of an argument (hell, the sole basis) is not very good for your credibility.

Meanwhile, unlike some moron in a support forum, it appears that even most of the tech journalism community that Paul LIKES is saying that Vista is a problem. Now, I'm not claiming they're correct in their broad condemnation, but it's far more reasonable to accept their collective conclusion than some moron support post. It's certainly not a "blatant lie". And it's certainly more honest than basing your whole argument for Leopard being unstable (and increasingly so) or some forum post that Paul linked to.

Give me a break. Leopard and Vista are both very stable. Of course, Leopard's graphics subsystem is dramatically superior (as are it's APIs according to many developers), presenting the exact same interface on any mac going back to 5 year old 800mhz G4s, regardless of what applications you run. Meanwhile, Vista's Aero is a 1.0 performance dog that for some insane reason gets shut off if an older application runs. That it can't even run well on machines dramatically faster than the systems Leopard supports doesn't speak well for the quality of the code. In fact, it sounds downright kludgy to me... which may explain why Windows developers and Microsoft themselves have ignored WPF for their apps. Not even the brand-new Zune software uses WPF... and this was one of the main three "pillars" of Vista. That wreaks of technical failure to me. But I guess Windows users are so happy that windows don't cover their screen in a smear whenever the processor is being used that they can over look the shortcomings.

Of course, Apple pioneered the GPU-accelerated vector-powered compositing graphics engine with Mac OS X 10.0 back in 2000 and has been refining it and expanding it ever since. The Waethorns of the world continue to ignore what a huge lead Apple opened up on the display front in OSX with Quartz. Vista is, obviously, playing massive catch-up to Apple's GUI engine.

As for Windows PC support finger pointing... this is a fact of life that is dramatically better with Apple. You just can't deny that. Saying you don't have problems is a dodge. People do have problems and when that happens, they get a horrible run-around with the PC vendor blaming anyone else and anyone else blaming everyone else. This is why PC Magazine and Consumer Reports have always found that support and user satisfaction for Apple computers is a giant leap above even the best PC vendor. Again, this is just an indisputable fact. Hell, I got a 4 hour run-around between Microsoft and the company that runs their "Windowsmarketplace" when the vista "full version" download I bought actually required Windows to already be installed instead of generating a disc image like every mac software download in the past 5 years. Yeah, some "full version". But neither Microsoft nor the vendor that manages the microsoft online store would take responsibility for this. Amazing. That's the PC world. Zero accountability when things don't work. Zero.