Preliminary verdict: Apple MobileMe (UPDATED)

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re: Preliminary verdict: Apple MobileMe (UPDATED)

mikegalos@msn.com — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 19:38:00 GMT

@johnpapola

"I'm not ignoring the role of vision, or drive, or love of your work in the creation of new innovation."

Actually, that's exactly what you're doing. And you are presenting it as a truism that doesn't require anything to back it up.

"But you simply cannot downplay the role that competition plays in keeping people on their toes and motivated. "

You bet I can.

In 20+ years in the PC business, I've never seen "Competition improve the breed" as the truism goes. What does, and in my experience, the only thing that does, is talented people who see the ability to see their work and visions implemented and having effect in the real world.

Competition as a motivator works well on people doing maintenence work in established fields and it works on B-school types and it works on sales reps. It does NOT work well as a motivator in new technology creative workers except when it means that the work they are doing might not ship. Aside from that, shipping the vision and doing things that are cool are the motivators.

That's a key area that managers blow when they assume that their developers are motivated by the same things that they are.

On the question of Libertarinism vs libertarianism, if you believe that goverment should treat a corporation as a legal fiction then perhaps it's time to rethink the role of government.

The flaw I've seen in the "pro-corporation" variant is that they seem to think the role of government is to be big enough to protect their business interests but too small to protect their partners and customers. And that doesn't fit with any consistent definition of philosophy.

Again, there are lots of libertarians who wildly disagree with that variant and I do not lump them together.

re: Preliminary verdict: Apple MobileMe (UPDATED)

johnpapola — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 19:23:26 GMT

@mikegalos,

I'm not ignoring the role of vision, or drive, or love of your work in the creation of new innovation. But you simply cannot downplay the role that competition plays in keeping people on their toes and motivated. As someone that works in a large organization, I can tell you that competitive spirit is essential. Not singular, but essential.

As for your politics... I'm thinking this isn't the forum to go any further in this debate. I was making a simple statement, not intending to open this door. You appear to be quite farther to the left economically than I am... and that's fine. You probably believe the internet's success is an example of government invest done right... where as I believe that the absolute, decentralized chaos of the market that allowed the peering system to come about post ARPANET is more important to that story.

I'd prefer to avoid quasi ad-hominem attacks about ideology as you're leaning toward with your rebuke of libertarianism as a "old big business GOP deal with legalized drugs". I happen to fall into the more fundamentally structural critique of corporate personhood as well as the elimination of all corporate subsidies (and corporate-lead regulations aimed more at harming competitors and raising barriers to entry than helping the individual citizen).

indeed. Off topic. We'd have a fun time over coffee.

I'm not slamming MS here, really. I'm just stating the obvious. They do best when threatened by a competitor. That's just the facts. Those threats bring out the vision. They keep everyone focused.

re: Preliminary verdict: Apple MobileMe (UPDATED)

lilserenity — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 18:34:24 GMT

I think XMLHTTPRequest emerged in IE 5/5.5, but it's possible to do AJAX like activity with an iframe which emerged with IE4, I think Google Maps still uses this method rather than XMLHTTPRequest, if it doesn't now it certainly used to.

So this would peg this in around 1999, which is when MS had a very dominant position with IE on Windows and Mac, Nutscrape was left for dead and Opera was a paid for browser so need I say anymore?

That said though, IE5.5 and 6 aren't exactly distant cousins and are pretty closely related and certainly the underpinning Trident HTML engine (mshtml.dll) isn't that much different from 5.5 to 6.

Anyway I digress...

re: Preliminary verdict: Apple MobileMe (UPDATED)

mikegalos@msn.com — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 18:19:51 GMT

@johnpapola

The innovations that created AJAX were done in IE 4 and IE 5.

What spurred them on was not some nameless competitor but vision. Starting with BillG's "Internet Tidal Wave" memo and continuing with management knowing that there was now a new open arena to play in and letting their teams go. I know. I was there at the time.

Thinking that innovation occurs from competition is overly simplistic. As is something as simple as Capitalism vs Socialism. I'd suggest you read "What the Dormouse Said" to understand that the Personal Computer revolution actually came out of the New Left of the 1960s and 1970s.

Oh, and most educated geeks I know rejected modern "Libertarianism" when they saw it was only the old big business Republicans with a tolerance for repeal of drug laws. If they support libertarianism at all, support a more traditional version that rejects state recognition of corporations. (Something that horrifies most Libertarian Party types who expect the state to be just big enough protect their business interests)

The Technology types I've seen who support the Libertarian Party variant are usually marketing types who have a goal of selling out to VC and retiring on their options and not geeks who want to build technology.

But that's way off topic.

re: Preliminary verdict: Apple MobileMe (UPDATED)

johnpapola — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 18:06:01 GMT

@Mike,

That's a very interesting point. I don't know when these particular features were added to IE, but I'll take your word for it. Still, it's hard to argue that IE development was essentially ended after IE6 and only was re-constituted when Firefox began to show a credible threat.

As for the leveraging of government, the most insidious monopoly of them all (and the only legal one that can enforce it's decrees with guns), I'll stand by almost any critique of the abuse of regulation to harm competition. I am a pretty hard-core libertarian after all. What educated geek wouldn't be?

Still, my essential point I think is pretty fair and pretty broadly agreed upon. Microsoft does it's best work when they have a strong competitor. It's called human nature. It's why capitalism is a success and socialism is a failure. Competition is the best driver for improvement, productivity and innovation.

re: Preliminary verdict: Apple MobileMe (UPDATED)

mikegalos@msn.com — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 17:53:19 GMT

@Johnpapola...

Nice conspiracy theory but...

These innovations that came "when Microsoft had a competitor" actually were developed when there really was no competitor in the browser market.

Netscape had already imploded.

Mozilla foundation was busy throwing out most of Netscape's code and starting over to get something useful built.

Apple was using IE for Macintosh and was trying to stay alive after the Microsoft bail-out.

I guess there was Opera but I doubt that was the competition you meant.

Blocking innovation with government mandates is apparently a lot more effective way to stifle innovation than conspiracy theories about "competition". But innovation seems to be bad for competitor's profit margins so blocking innovation is what's lobbied for these days.

re: Preliminary verdict: Apple MobileMe (UPDATED)

johnpapola — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 17:38:21 GMT

Amazing the innovations that came from Microsoft in the browser when they had a competitor. They laid the foundation for modern AJAX and "web 2.0". And then it all went dark once they achieved windows-like share of the browser. Microsoft isn't "evil" per-say. They're a monopolist. And we all can see plainly what happens to price, product quality and innovation in a market with monopoly power.

Windows users around the world should be praying every day that Apple achieves 20% or more of the PC market, the way Firefox + Safari is achieving in the browser market. Nothing would do more for the health of their platform. Everyone knows this... with any honesty. Only the hateful partisan loons like Waethorn seem to wish away Apple and their competition. Of course, he trolls for clients in their stores, so there's a motive factor to consider in his blind hate.

re: Preliminary verdict: Apple MobileMe (UPDATED)

lilserenity — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 16:44:33 GMT

snakedoctor1:

If you think I was just bashing Apple and ignoring MS... lol No way. But as ggolcher says, two wrongs don't make a right in this case. Microsoft's support for other clients has never been too hot.

But then Safari's implementation of XMLHTTPRequest wasn't too hot until at least 2.0.4 of Safari. Even Yahoo's new web mail in 2006 didn't support Safari.

Safari also didn't really exist when OWA came on to the scene so it couldn't be a target, KHTML/Konqueror arguably did but XMLHttpRequest support didn't arrive in a non IE browser for some years. As for why Exchange 2007 doesn't have the same support for all browsers, I don't know. I'm not a big enough user of OWA except to say it works in Firefox but it looks better in IE. It is again rather lazy though in this day and age.

What I am saying however is that I am a one girl band, I run about 11 very popular (tens of thousands of visits a day) websites, and I have managed compatibility right across the board.

For any big corporation to default on a certain browser, where an individual can get them to play ball largely is a pretty poor show, Apple or Microsoft.

The bottom line is there is no excuse for Apple to draw the IE isn't very standards savvy line, because we know it is, but in actual fact IE7 is not that bad and rarely needs that much work, and IE6 can be made to play ball if you work hard enough.

If Apple wants this MobileMe service to take off, they're going to have to support their largest user base properly and that is whether we like it or not, Windows users and Windows users using Internet Explorer, and if things look pap in IE, they'll usually see it as an Apple problem. Not exactly idea in Apple's interests.

I'm an Apple user myself, but I also use Linux and Windows. I just think it's a poor show for what is a bang up to date new 'cloud' app that has been programmed by a team in a large corporation.

Likewise I expect better from MS with their next version of Exchange and its OWA.

In reality we have to look at OWA's and Sharepoint's major users and they are IE users, at the time it probably made little sense to invest too much time getting the thing to work in all browsers, but I do think this will change. Macs just don't have corporate penetration anything like a Windows box.

But MobileMe could be the essential companion to an iPhone or an iPod Touch, but 75% of the world still browses with IE, whether we like it or not.

re: Preliminary verdict: Apple MobileMe (UPDATED)

mikegalos@msn.com — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 16:34:18 GMT

@SnakeDoctor1

You're missing (or choosing to ignore) a few key facts...

Most people who use an iPod or iPhone run Windows on all their computers. A few percent use both Mac and Windows. A very tiny minority are Apple only.

Most people who use Windows use Internet Explorer 7

Apple touted Windows support as a key feature of this product even to the point of changing the product name to something less proprietary (And, ironically, more Windows ME like)

Now, put those numbers together and, if you really are looking at this from a reasonable perspective, you'll see that Apple just flat out blew it.

re: Preliminary verdict: Apple MobileMe (UPDATED)

halesgarcia — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 15:24:53 GMT

The light bulb has lit up at Apple. It's dawned on them that 'just good enough' is all that is ever necessary, especially when you're establishing a dominant position in a fledgling market, in this case Web 2.0 services. Microsoft perfected the tactic and Apple (actually NeXT) learned it well, don't you think?

The readership here criticize Apple either objectively or defensively, but let's face it we're a minority of nerds. I see lines around phone stores and Apple stores where the iPhone is being sold. They're comprised of people who don't read the nerdy stuff and who are predominantly Windows users.

The iPhone is hot and Apple is focusing on priority one, moving them out as fast as possible. After the dust has settled, the polishing will come.

Don't worry (or do, if that's you're bias).

re: Preliminary verdict: Apple MobileMe (UPDATED)

Snakedoctor1 — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:30:38 GMT

@ggolcher....yes Jesus does save...Amen!!

First off IE does work for the most part, I cant find what does not work in my limited testing with IE on me.com

Apple can choose to go its route with IE 6/7 for a few reasons.

1. .Mac was a Mac only product for the most part, until this update. It will still largely be a Mac only "used" product so Safari support should be #1.

2. Windows users can download Safari and FF3. In comparison IE can only be used on Windows, forcing you to use Windows if you need those features I talked about (Premium OWA etc).

3. Like I said IE7 works for the most part.

4. IE8 will probably fully work since its more inline with the standards.

MS needs to support more browsers with their products or release IE for OSX/Linux.....I dont see why or how Apple needs to do more than it has.

re: Preliminary verdict: Apple MobileMe (UPDATED)

ggolcher — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:02:49 GMT

Snakedoctor:

They're business decisions. With limited resources you can only do so much, so in most cases it makes very little sense to support Safari.

Now, I agree with you that it sucks and I wish all platforms, but I don't like what you are implying, that it's ok for Apple to not support IE7, because Microsoft does not support Safari. I just don't think two wrongs make a right, especially in the business world where it's about growing the business and making a profit, not getting hung trying to "prove something".

If you want an example of thinking with business acumen: Microsoft software on OS X respects platform conventions, Apple software on Windows does not. Why does Microsoft do this when Apple does it? Because Microsoft wants products that OS X users like to make money.

Don't get so defensive next time, buddy. Jesus saves.

re: Preliminary verdict: Apple MobileMe (UPDATED)

Snakedoctor1 — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 11:48:03 GMT

@lisserentiy.....

Why does hotmail require IE6 or FireFox, why wont I get the "full experience" with Safari???

Why cant I only get the "Premium experience" in OWA 5.5/2003/2007 with ONLY IE and not FF or Safari???

Why do some features not work with Sharepoint unless you use IE???

Why when I go to look up the Vista hardware compatibility list, does it require only IE???? winqual.microsoft.com/.../BrowserNotSupported.html I mean maybe people are thinking about switching from OS X to Vista and want to maker sure their hardware is going to work:)

re: Preliminary verdict: Apple MobileMe (UPDATED)

lilserenity — Mon, 14 Jul 2008 08:04:01 GMT

They could have supported IE7 easily if they just bothered to actually sit down and code the thing and bug test.

I'm a Firefox 3 user, and use various platforms and IE6 is a swear word in my office :-) But all the same everything I do which is very much dependent on AJAX methods, XML and quite intricate layouts works fine in IE6 - it's not perfect but it's 99.9% tight aesthetic wise.

On IE7 it works without too much hassle.

I think it's pretty shoddy on Apple's part to play the "IE isn't quite..." card especially on IE7 which is for the most part just fine, just slower than Fx 3 I find.