Windows, not Walls

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re: Windows, not Walls

mikegalos@msn.com — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 07:13:40 GMT

John,

You should have mail from me. (Assuming that Apple service stays up) :-)

re: Windows, not Walls

johnpapola — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 04:04:42 GMT

@Mike,

Sounds good. I want to learn more about Microsoft and welcome the chance to have civil back and forth with someone of your knowledge. Ping me on email from johnpapola.com if you'd like.

re: Windows, not Walls

mikegalos@msn.com — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 03:29:24 GMT

John,

I agree that this might not be the ideal forum and we can both think about better places. At a minimum, this topic is already way too long for reasonable navigation.

I'll look through your proposed context and rules and see if between the two of us we can come up with a good, educational process.

re: Windows, not Walls

chuckb84 — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 00:37:50 GMT

Mike,

It's pretty simple. Even after 200+ posts on this one(!) blog entry, you haven't provided a simple list of all those "innovations" Microsoft is doing.

Haven't got one, have you?

re: Windows, not Walls

johnpapola — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 23:51:40 GMT

@Mike,

Yeah, I was saying we could go back and forth. I'm all for establishing some agreed context for the debate. You outclass me on tech by miles, but I like to learn from smart guys like yourself and I'm a fast learner. This forum is looking like it's not the ideal forum but whatever.

Let me know if you have other ideas for the frame of the discussion.

re: Windows, not Walls

mikegalos@msn.com — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 21:42:00 GMT

Actually, tayme, I was off installing IE8B2

John, Are you voluteering to take the Mac side?

If not, then the rules don't matter since they should be set between the participants.

If so, then say so.

I honestly can't tell from your post.

re: Windows, not Walls

WebGuy3000 — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 21:32:27 GMT

I'm reminded of the weeks of arguing about the shape of the table at the Paris Peace talks in 1968.

This thread has already achieved Dostoevsky-like length, generating a lot of heat and little light. I can see little to be gained by continuing it, unless you just like to argue for the sake of it.

Oh, and I like Jerry Seinfeld.

re: Windows, not Walls

tayme — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 21:19:15 GMT

@jp - I am guessing that mikegalos will require you to post the first list...that is his way of doing things...I think that I will cross-link to this post so that he knows it is here...he will claim to not know, otherwise.

--tayme

re: Windows, not Walls

johnpapola — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 20:50:41 GMT

Bravo Tayme. Bravo.

This is pretty lame, Mike. You make truly hyperbolic claims about Microsoft unequivocal dominance of OS innovation in multiple threads, you shoot down my lengthy addressing of the graphics subsystems in OSX that predated Avalon/WPF... and all you do is dismiss that. Then you dismiss older innovations of Apple and NeXT as being too old.... so... it sounds like you are building your statement on a timetable that you're just not willing to share with us.

You're the one making the claim. You're the one dismissing older innovation. You expect me and others to argue with you on your turf with your rules in a game constructed to ensure your rhetorical victory? Dipsht may be willing to cede you the dictatorial power to declare what is and is not "innovation", but I sure as hell will not.

You're a very smart guy. No question. You seem to know off the top of your head much more about the business than I do. But that doesn't mean that you're right. Your experience brings with it biases. We all do. I switched platforms. I can see both sides, though I favor the Mac as my tool now. And, you know, sometimes engineers can be a bit myopic. Notice that both Apple and Microsoft are run by Steve's who aren't engineers? Yet they make the call. They steer the strategy. I'm not knocking engineering or engineers. Just stating the what think is a pretty agreeable observation.

So... how is this going to go? Are you just going to keep flame baiting and then ignoring reasonable requests for a back and forth? Or are you going to put up.

THE GREAT DEBATE:

Here's a timeframe: the past 10 years. Why? Its a round number. so 1998 to 2008. We leave the Mac GUI, NeXT and NT early innovation debate behind and focus on the present. I think that gives you an inherent an unfair advantage, but so be it. The present it is.

Here's What counts: The platform.

By that I mean anything in the OS, including the underpinnings, the graphics and audio subsystems and GUI, networking, developer APIs anything that is used as a building block for users or developers. Applications that provide an interface to platform are fair game (like system preferences or the control panel). Applications that are essentially stand-alone programs but bundled with the OS are not. So iLife doesn't count, obviously, but neither does Vista's Photo Gallery application. Media Center is a gray area, but I suppose we can include it as well as the rarely-used Front Row on OSX.

Here's my proposal for additional ground rules.

#1. The degree to which something is "innovative" must be acknowledged as subjective. Different innovations matter more than others to different users. One universal "this is bigger/better" must prove it's point in depth. Therefore, the relative importance of one innovation over another when there isn't a clear relationship between the two must be argued on many fronts including:

A. how many technologies or applications stem from the innovation.

B. how many users/developers are helped

C. what's been the impact in the real world.

#3. When one innovation is built on top of another or is a natural extension of the former, the first innovation wins, but doesn't invalidate the second. For example, DRM is an innovation that was necessary before subscription music could be possible. So DRM is more important than subscription music services as an innovation.

#4. When both sides can be demonstrated to have worked on the same problem at the same time (as is often the case. It is called Computer Science for a reason)... the first to market wins.

This the best I can do right now. Will you take up the challenge?

re: Windows, not Walls

tayme — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 18:51:56 GMT

@mikegalos - Show me where I attacked you for setting rules? Are you talking about the rule that somebody should post a list of Apple's innovations before you can list MS's...even though you are the person who made the broad claim that they are the ONLY or predominant innovator? If so, I was not attacking you for sticking to the rules...just calling BS on that particular rule. Admit it...you were wrong to make such a strong statement...it's really ok. No reason to try to appear God-like here...

--tayme