The Mojave Experiment continues...

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Trends blog » Blog Archive » mojave experiment — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 03:44:52 GMT

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re: The Mojave Experiment continues...

johnpapola — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 02:18:54 GMT

@subzero:

"There are plenty of merits to OS-X, but I think its ironic that Leopard is supposed to be the best OS. Yet one of its touted features is using Windows Vista. Obviously, if you need Vista, its not as good as advertised."

...for some users. Windows is certainly and unquestionably needed for users that rely on Windows-only or IE-only applications/websites. My mom is a realtor and her sites only render in IE... so she uses parallels for those and the Mac OS and it's applications for literally everything else. Almost everyone else I know on the Mac don't need Windows apps at all.

Computers are far too diverse in their use to declare one system better for all people in all situations.

"How can you come on to a Windows oriented site and not recently have any recent Vista SP 1 experience? It really diminishes your arguments because you don't have the experience of today's Windows Vista."

How? I don't argue about the quality of Vista. Again, I think Vista is pretty good from the little I've used it. I challenge you to find me arguing against Vista on this site. I come here to stay up to date on Windows, to discuss Paul's Apple commentary, and in this thread to discuss a branding and marketing campaign as a professional brand guy for Spike. Parse my discussion here again, before trying to invalidate my points. I make no personal claims of Vista's "success" or "failure".

"I think you should have a working version of Vista, which your Mac should be able to do."

I did install Vista on my macbook. I installed great. The bootcamp installer is awesome and adds nice mac-specific drivers. So that was great. I'll need to use it more regularly to have an informed opinion, which is unlikely since my works is all in the Mac environment. But it's good to have on there.

"So you can speak from actual user experience instead of copying the Apple talking points, tech writers, and commericials"

What "Apple talking points" am I copying? Again, I don't think you are reading my posts in this thread or on this site with objectivity. Re-read them and pretend that you don't know I use and love the Mac. I'm not Ocean or Lotsa or whatever. I don't believe in applying generalizations to people instead of dealing with them on their direct comments (though I will admit that I have made general statements about "mac-bashers" on many occasions).

re: The Mojave Experiment continues...

subzerohitman721 — Sat, 30 Aug 2008 13:12:58 GMT

Waethorn said:

If you can get Vista SP1 installed on a Mac GPT disk, OS X would become completely obsolete and unnecessary.

My Comments:

Not necessarily. There are plenty of merits to OS-X, but I think its ironic that Leopard is supposed to be the best OS. Yet one of its touted features is using Windows Vista. Obviously, if you need Vista, its not as good as advertised.

johnpapola stated:

Then again, I haven't used it for a long stretch... so maybe it's a death by a 1000 cuts.

My Comments: Thats really ashame. How can you come on to a Windows oriented site and not recently have any recent Vista SP 1 experience? It really diminishes your arguments because you don't have the experience of today's Windows Vista. Vista runs so much better today, thanks to the better hardware and software improvements. Using Windows Readyboost has really taken me past XP level performance.

However, I do check out Macs through my friends and the stores that sell them including the local Mac Store at the Shops at Willow Bend. Also, I have friends who run OS-X on VMware and those who actually own Macs.

I think you should have a working version of Vista, which your Mac should be able to do. So you can speak from actual user experience instead of copying the Apple talking points, tech writers, and commericials.

I also visted Fry's Electronics to buy a new router and I saw approximately 50 people in line buying hardware intended for Windows Vista. The software guys were offering big sales on Vista and people were buying. Or on the hardware upgrade area, plenty of people buying for Vista PC's. This was on a Friday and that store had a good number of people in there on a business day.

This idea that the revised reviews of Vista aren't selling with the consuming public is F.U.D. Plain and simple. I think you're underestimating the intelligence and critical mindedness of Windows users. Don't believe me, go visit actual PC retailers (more than one.) and see it for yourself. I think you need to take a good hard look at the truth, that Vista isn't going away anytime soon.

re: The Mojave Experiment continues...

Waethorn — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 17:26:09 GMT

All I'm saying is that if you can get an EFI Shell on a Mac, and it has support for launching EFI programs (.nsh files) from a disc, will a Vista SP1 DVD actually load? Vista SP1 supports UEFI, but how much of that is different from Apple's implementation of EFI (which is based on an earlier version)?

If you can get this to work, you'd be saying hello to Vista SP1 running natively on Macs without BIOS emulation, and without the MBR emulation mode that seems to run (from what I hear, when you boot off the Vista CD, Windows Setup only sees the disk as if it only contained the "Boot Camp partition" and OS X is still there on it's regular GPT partition, hidden from view, and inaccessible from Windows Setup altogether). If you can get Vista SP1 installed on a Mac GPT disk, OS X would become completely obsolete and unnecessary.

Hmm....

re: The Mojave Experiment continues...

Waethorn — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 15:30:58 GMT

Let me rephrase my previous statement....

Can you launch x64 EFI applications from disc from within the EFI Shell on a Mac (assuming they have a bootable commandline EFI Shell at all)?

Obviously it has support for the hardware already assuming OSX enumerates hardware by the EFI.

re: The Mojave Experiment continues...

Waethorn — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 15:21:10 GMT

Quick technical question: Does the Mac allow you to boot to the EFI Shell? And does it have drivers included for all of the necessary Mac hardware? (ie. optical drive, hard drive, drive controller, etc?)

re: The Mojave Experiment continues...

subzerohitman721 — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 11:33:00 GMT

I think some of yall really did jump the shark on this whole Mojave thing. The article by Koroush Ghazi pretty much says that Vista doesn't have the "Wow" factor but its definitely a better OS experience. Perhaps Seven will have the wow factor, who knows? But the Mojave experiment was to attack the complete lies, deception, and F.U.D. from some of the most ignorant pseudo "tech writers".

It was simply a way to say, don't believe everything you've read or heard. Word of mouth is powerful, bit its not always right. Remember Iraq's supposed Weapons of Mass Destruction? More like a weapon of mass F.U.D.! Sometimes you have to try things for yourself and make your own judgements. Its that simple. Thats all Microsoft wants people to do. Check out Vista SP1 on modern equipment. If its really not your thing, then you've got options like Leopard, Ubuntu, etc.

You can't always listen to things like that. When making computer decisions, you have to do your own research. You have to weigh all the benefits. Thats all Mojave is trying to do. Tell people to really look at Vista objectively, not based on hearsay, lies, deception and hyperbolie. Nobody is pointing a gun to your head and say buy Vista. There's plenty of alternatives. However, you really can't blame Microsoft for trying to counter pure lies. Yes. Vista has some problems, but it works for a lot of users.

re: The Mojave Experiment continues...

johnpapola — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 04:14:33 GMT

@Shark,

I understand what they are trying to combat. Obviously, people have a strong negative opinion of Vista with first hand experience is a problem. But I have strong doubts that this is the result of "goatberg" and the like. I've come across many IT guys that don't like Vista, think it's too much of a resource hog and aren't the types to be persuaded by mainstream media reviews. They are, however, the exact guys that probably give advice to 30+ people in their personal circle.

I'm that kind of guy to my friends and family (though on the Mac side). People trust my advice. They act on it. I think many people like me, but on the Windows side, have been spreading the word that Vista is a resource hogging mess and to steer clear.

This campaign's effort to dispel that is junk. That's all. It proves nothing. It may be a clever little hook to get people to think who aren't very critical minded. But if that was their only goal, it's a pretty low target.

re: The Mojave Experiment continues...

DRWAM — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 23:57:32 GMT

Yep Mike, as you stated my buddy purchased Office 2007 for Windows for his iMac running Vista. He claims problems with Vista seeing all the networked computers, and that he sometimes needs to boot Leopard to do it, but he is more of a novice than an expert, and I had just the opposite experience until the Leopard update. Now Vista and Leopard both see everything.

My first experience with Vista was a setup of a buddy using a Dell XPS 410. Vista immediately saw the wireless network [built-in Dell wireless card] and worked in a few seconds, and has never failed since January. Then we printed from Office 2007 [student]. Yep, Vista instantly found the 3 year network HP network printer and printed. Gents, my life was just made easy and I no longer get tech service requests from him because it just works. Next he ask me to help him to make a DVD. I just had hm buy an OEM version of Nero, since that's all I know about on Windows, He was burning in twenty minutes and this guy is below novice level. I have been enjoying my tech free evenings with interrupting calls. I owe Steve Ballmer dinner. BTW, right now I'm typing on my Mac Pro Tower, so you must believe that I am sincere. NONE of you love Vista more than me!!!!:)

re: The Mojave Experiment continues...

Ocean — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 22:30:53 GMT

They'd fooled them to get them to look though.

re: The Mojave Experiment continues...

shark47 — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 22:05:08 GMT

" I was contributing here not as a mac user/Microsoft critic, but as a professional branding guy curious about the strategy of The Mojave Project and skeptical of it's core assumptions."

I think you make an incorrect assumption about the core assumptions behind the whole experiment. (No pun intended.) I think the whole concept started from an assumption on their part that many people who hadn't personally used Vista had negative impressions of the OS based on the theory what they read on blogs or Goatberg's reviews and the idea was to test that theory. Is it a scientific study? Of course not. Ocean linked to some article where the author interpreted the word experiment to mean science. Fair enough, but it's not Microsoft's fault that they're using it in a different sense.

The intent of the study was not to fool people, but to have them look at Vista from a different perspective. That's all I can say.

re: The Mojave Experiment continues...

johnpapola — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 20:59:09 GMT

@Mike,

"A Mac sale that ends up booting into Windows may be a Mac sale (and an OS X sale) but it is a lost platform sale which means no sale of iLife or other 1st or 3rd party Mac Apps so Apple is likely not that happy to make it."

That assumes that the buyer was going to buy a Mac and run OSX and instead bought the Mac and switched to Windows. If, on the other hand, the buyer was going to buy a Dell and would never even consider OSX... that sale is a pure net gain. It's a sale they were not going to get with no negative platform implications.

I don't believe there are many OSX users that want to run Windows primarily but stick with Apple hardware for the superior design. Look at Paul. He like the macbook hardware and is a windows guy. Paul's macbook is a 100% net win for apple.

re: The Mojave Experiment continues...

Ocean — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 20:38:19 GMT

It was nothing more than a response to the 2:32 PM message. Check it out.

re: The Mojave Experiment continues...

mikegalos@msn.com — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 20:34:39 GMT

John,

" A Mac sale that ends up booting into Windows, as Paul does with his macbook, is still a Mac sale and Apple's clearly happy to make it."

It's not even that simple. A Mac sale that ends up booting into Windows may be a Mac sale (and an OS X sale) but it is a lost platform sale which means no sale of iLife or other 1st or 3rd party Mac Apps so Apple is likely not that happy to make it. Although happier than Dell selling a Windows box.

re: The Mojave Experiment continues...

shark47 — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 20:33:37 GMT

Ocean, would you please stop this nonsense? Thank you!