First Windows 7 M3 screenshot appears

Anything about IT » Blog Archive » Getting annoyed by the rumors

Anything about IT » Blog Archive » Getting annoyed by the rumors — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:38:34 GMT

Pingback from Anything about IT » Blog Archive » Getting annoyed by the rumors

re: First Windows 7 M3 screenshot appears

mikegalos@msn.com — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 21:10:41 GMT

John

An SDK that doesn't let you actually build apps for the actual platform is called documentation.

If you even want to test your app on a device you own you have to pay $99.

Putting into your world, this is the equivalent of saying that there is a free video editor that does everything the commercial one with only the exception that you can only view the finished video on your computer in that application. But a version that can save in real formats so you can distribute your video was $99. Would you say it was a free editor? How would you feel if, then, at the end of the process, you could only distribute your video through the company that wrote the tool and they had final say over what you could produce?

Microsoft's SDKs are free.

Microsoft's compilers are free.

Microsoft's Express series of developer tool suites are free.

You can build real, commercial, distributable applications using just those zero cost tools.

Microsoft does sell additional tool suites that offer extra tools above the Express versions but none of those are required to build real applications.

In short, you're both factually wrong and defending the indefensible.

re: First Windows 7 M3 screenshot appears

johnpapola — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 20:56:03 GMT

@dip,

That's very illuminating. You're right. This is a great design for the userbase.

@Mike,

Markets are about money. What percentage of all software revenues and profits for Windows and Mac OS do you think Microsoft Office has? What is the profit margin on Microsoft Office?

You keep saying "it's only preventing competition with 5 programs" as if those 5 programs aren't the 5 most widely used, widely distributed and widely purchased programs in the history of computing.

Let's have a little perspective here. I think it's great that Microsoft is giving this UI away. I think office is a generally very good product (if a bit frustrating at times). But give me a break. Microsoft's Office profits pay for their development many many times over.

As for the Appstore, you are conflating many different, unrelated things into one big Apple-bashing heap. Apple's 30% charge for all distribution and bandwidth I believe is much lower than the competitor's fees and there seems to be a general consensus from the iPhone dev community that it's a fair deal. Apple even eats the cost for free apps, which has been the path many devs have used to release "lite" versions that act as trials. Apple's alleged "bricking" has not been proven to be a malicious act and it's dishonest for you to portray it as policy.

I downloaded the SDK for free with no fees, so I don't know what this annual fee is that your talking about. Is that just a lie, or am I missing something? I believe you need to pay $99 to get access to testing on the device itself instead of the simulator, but the full SDK is there and free to download and use. I don't know if the $99 is a recurring cost, but it certainly isn't expensive by any definition. To all this I ask, how much does Microsoft charge for it's development tools? Are they free like Apple's? I thought they were quite expensive. Am I wrong?

As for the overall opaque Apple approval process, I agree on all fronts. If they don't straighten this out soon, they are going to really damage the young software ecosystem of the platform. No question.

I'm not sure why you feel you must muddy up your good arguments with Apple-bashing partisan FUD. It's not a credible way to conduct things.

re: First Windows 7 M3 screenshot appears

chuckb84 — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 20:55:28 GMT

Ah, an INTERFACE DEBATE. My favorite.

First, try to get past that it's David Pogue and watch this:

www.ted.com/.../david_pogue_says_simplicity_sells.html

Pay special attention to the then-current version of Word with all the Toolbars open, at 7:58 into the video.

He's tougher on Windows than Macs, but I think he is right about simplicity and the use of screen real estate.

Or, look here for Edward Tufte's take on this topic (BTW, if you don't own at least "The Visual Display of Quantitative information" you are short changing your ability to communicate)

What Tufte calls "computer administrative debris" is the enemy of the USE of computers.

www.edwardtufte.com/.../iphone-video.adp

These are two of the best commentaries on the topic that I've ever seen. Both worth watching. Even if you disagree with specific points, you'll learn from these.

re: First Windows 7 M3 screenshot appears

Dipsh t Admin — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 20:16:59 GMT

"This use seems to be pretty flawed considering that most monitors are now widescreen"

Not so fast. I would seem to be that way, but the reality is very different. As subzero suggested, check out the Engineering 7 blog, particularly this post which provides some insight in to this very matter. I'm confident that the number is increasing, but they have to develop for the wide reality here, which is a lower resolution.

blogs.msdn.com/.../the-windows-feedback-program.aspx

re: First Windows 7 M3 screenshot appears

subzerohitman721 — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 19:25:27 GMT

My suggestion for those Windows, Mac, Linux users who have concerns is to head over to the Engineering Windows 7 blog and post your concerns. Don't just complain about it, put in that forum so it can be debated. It will help make the next Windows a better product.

blogs.msdn.com/.../default.aspx

Sinofsky and company have been very responsive. I've laid out my own responses and ideas.

re: First Windows 7 M3 screenshot appears

mikegalos@msn.com — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 19:13:32 GMT

john

Nope. Totally different to anybody not wanting to tar Microsoft with Apple's brush.

Microsoft offers a free, amazingly complex tool with the only restriction that you can't compete with the 5 apps that paid for its development. Microsoft places those terms up front so the few rules that are in place are clear before you even evaluate whether you want to use the design. Microsoft makes no restriction of sales, distribution or development.

Apple reserves the right to block any and all apps that compete with anything they write or will write or may write. Apple blocks distribution of apps that they don't approve for whatever arbitrary reason they choose. Apple bricks devices that try to use a distribution channel other than their own. Apple charges a 30% fee for all apps. Apple charges an annual fee for the use of their toolkit. Apple prohibits apps that not only compete with them but with their preferred partners, Apple reserves the right and exercises the right to block apps even if they meet all the published guidelines, Apple does not make the determination of what will or won't be approved until development is done, Apple provides no independent means of appealing their decisions.

You really had a straight face when you wrote that those were the same?

re: First Windows 7 M3 screenshot appears

johnpapola — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 18:59:35 GMT

The ribbon is a great UI for office. This use seems to be pretty flawed considering that most monitors are now widescreen and all of the those tools would far more effectively be aligned on the left or right. Can you do that? Does the ribbon have that option?

@Mike, Hmm...

Amazing and free software development tools and the only catch is that you can't compete with the provider's cash cow. Mike, you don't see any hypocrisy in criticizing Apple's denial of podcaster to the appstore while championing this "Fluent UI" with essentially identical restrictions? I think both are pretty horrible policy.

The one difference is that Office has a monopoly in productivity software that actually may EXCEED that of Windows in computer OSes, while the iPhone platform is nowhere close to a monopoly in anything.

Again, for the record, I think that Apple's behavior regarding appstore rejections up to this point has been horrible.

re: First Windows 7 M3 screenshot appears

DRWAM — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 18:44:20 GMT

Mike, you're dead on as usual. In my younger days, my father would introduce me as a doctor, and then all the questions or their 'interesting medical history' would keep me standing in the 92 degree sun for 20 minutes or so, almost causing all of heat stroke. It's always "I had some test". What kind I asked. The reply was "I don't know" and also "I don't know the result", followed by "What do you think", even after telling them that their problem was not in my field. Well, at least I can bring computers back top life more often. Lawyers bring patients back to life more than we doctors. They just call them "Plaintiff's estate".

However, I get fewer tech help calls now that Vista is here. That may be anecdotal to you, but it's heaven to me. I should be on a Vista commercial. Bill and I eating hamburgers [bacon cheese burgers], you know, MEAT!!! Both of us healthy looking with rosey cheeks, unlike some vegetarian we know. How's them Apples? Can't SJ eat plain pizza?

re: First Windows 7 M3 screenshot appears

gorath — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 17:08:25 GMT

Mike, I agree correcting bettieblu, but you come across as a blowhard when you use that tone in your posts.

There's ways you can correct people without arrogance.

re: First Windows 7 M3 screenshot appears

subzerohitman721 — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 17:05:04 GMT

I personally love the Office 2007 ribbon. If this is standardized across the board in Seven, then I'm all for it. This UI ribbon is a nice evolutionary shift foward from what's been the Windows UI. The small incremental changes have been nice. Its time to shift foward and push the interface foward.

This is one of my biggest criticisms of OS-X, that it still bares little difference to the orginal 1984 Mac OS. Nothing has really change in their UI interface in 24 years. Do we still design car interiors like we did in 1950's, 1960's, or the 1970's? No, of course we don't. The materials change, the needs of consumers change, the technology changes, costs change, and thats how we move foward. The same is true of Operating Systems. Granted, they've added to OS-X, the user interface stays the same.

Obviously, they've kept some sort of Windows classic inferface in XP and Vista. If I was designing a business version of Seven, it would have that Windows classic as the default. That way Microsoft is being mindful of the needs of business training and support. They can keep it simple for business. Or if they find better productivity with the new UI, they can train their folks on the new UI.

I believe OS training on multiple platforms should be happening in the middle school and high school level, so that colleges can concentrate on more advanced concepts. If a 5 year old can learn his way around Windows with very little help, I think its reasonable to make it part of everyone's basic training. Its a reality of the 21st century. (True story. My 5 year old neighbor back in 1993 was using Windows 3.11 with no formal training. Then again he's attending Harvard.)

If Microsoft makes it consistent and works with feedback, I believe the Ribbon UI will work for the average users and the advanced user.

re: First Windows 7 M3 screenshot appears

mikegalos@msn.com — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:12:02 GMT

DRWAM

Lucky you. You get both...

You're a doctor. So what do you think I should do about...

and

Hey, you know computers. I've been having this problem...

re: First Windows 7 M3 screenshot appears

mikegalos@msn.com — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:11:03 GMT

Mum,

Yes. There are other Microsoft apps that use Fluent. Remember that Microsoft makes thousands of programs.

re: First Windows 7 M3 screenshot appears

DRWAM — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 11:50:39 GMT

I hear ya Ben. I've got a partner that's 66 that just got XP 2 yrs ago. Before he would call for every problem with his Windows Me box,when it was m,ostly hardware issues. Now he has XP [I set up Vita box for his son in Jan] and he called last night because he 'had no internet'. His son installed 'something' two days ago, starting the problem. I've got a laundry list of my own stuff to do, so I just had him do a System Restore, something that he's done at least twice before. Some of these older people just panic when something doesn't work. One kept me on the phone for a few hours, just to save a $100 and they make 7 figures!!

re: First Windows 7 M3 screenshot appears

benjwah — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:35:45 GMT

Hey Paul (or anyone),

Do you know if we'll be able to switch it back to the old way?

Not for me, but I work in a small office full of old, old people, who are afraid of new technology. Like, really, really afraid.

I regularly get panickedcalls for "You can't use these characters to name a file: *#^&[=-] etc"... By the same 3 people!...I'll be grey by the time I hit 30...

ANYWAY, if they get a machine with this installed, it's over. So please tell me that I can click "Windows Classic" somewhere and the whole OS and all the apps will look like an anti-aliased version of Windows 95. Save my hair.

I personally love it, it's the first thing that has actually made me care about Windows 7. But it's very different.